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C&R Question posed to the ATF

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Technosavant, Oct 5, 2006.

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  1. Technosavant

    Technosavant Member

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    OK, a few weeks ago I sent this email to the ATF. Given some of our discussions, I thought I'd go straight to the source.

    I had forgotten about this, but I said I'd post the reply. It's a 5 part reply.

    This is the "bound book." We knew this one.

    This is where we had the discussions. Note that there is nothing specifying whether the gun was acquired with or without the license. It is time period that concerns the ATF, not the method of acquisition. If the license is in effect, the acquisition needs to be logged.

    I hadn't noticed these before, but at the same time, unless you are in the habit of disposing C&R handguns to non-licensees, it isn't an issue. Just keep this in mind if you are selling one or more to a non-licensee.

    If somebody steals a C&R from you, let the ATF know. Simple enough- the form is provided in the big packet we licensees get.

    So there it is.
     
  2. Bruce333

    Bruce333 Member

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    Thank you!

    This is what I took it to mean, but good to have it spelled out.

    Tagged for future referance.
     
  3. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    So far this is the only "down side" to having the C&R that I have heard. I think it's ridiculous to log guns not acquired by actually using the license. So, I find a nice 1954 Colt at a gun shop and I buy it as a retail customer and the dealer logs it out to me as the buyer and I pay sales tax on it then I have to enter it into my C&R log at home? Stupid.

    Since I have never heard of anyone with a C&R even being inspected (one guy had his over 20 years with no inspections) it likely would never be an issue anyway. How hard are they going to investigate which guns you owned before obtaining the C&R and which ones need to be logged?

    I know it's not really that big a deal but it irks me. It's government intrusion and it's just plain stupid. I guess I already said that.

    Makes it even more appealling to let the C&R lapse every 3 years and reapply rather than renew. Once it lapses you throw away your log and start over. Typical bureaucratic thinking. Keep records on guns that don't need to be recorded,.. but by the way... every 3 years you can toss all those very, very important records away.
     
  4. knuckles

    knuckles Member

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    However, the license only applies to C&R right? I mean, I buy a brand new firearm, I don't have to log it in my bound book right?
     
  5. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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  6. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Me. :)
     
  7. spin180

    spin180 Member

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    I know of the rule that you're supposed provide the little Youth Handgun Safety pamphlet to an individual when you transfer a handgun to them, but I don't recall being required to give notice to the BATFE.

    Anyone know something further about this? I've looked over atf.gov, but I can't immediately find anything pertaining to this.

    Maybe my thinking is just akilter.

    :confused:
     
  8. HKUSP45C

    HKUSP45C Member

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    You'll notice it doesn't say provide notice "to the BATFE" .... I assume it means provide notice to the "non-licensee."

    My guess is the "written notification" is the pamphlet of which you speak.
     
  9. spin180

    spin180 Member

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    Mmmkay.

    But that sure is a weird way of saying, "give'em the pamphlet."

    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Technosavant

    Technosavant Member

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    It just says "written notification." It doesn't say to whom it must be given. Since it has to do with safety, it must be the buyer.

    As for the inspections, I wouldn't expect to get audited by them unless you reported a large number of dispositions on a renewal form. I don't really care if I have to log stuff even purchased locally; I'd rather log it in my own book than go through the 4473 and have that form kept on hand somewhere else. Either way, they can trace it to you. With it in my bound book, I have a good log of all C&R guns in my collection.
     
  11. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    So you get an answer and now I have more questions :p
    That says "...theft or loss of a firearm..." it doesn't seem to specify a Curio or Relic firearm.

    So if you have a C&R FFL and one of your modern firearms comes up stolen do you have to report it to the ATF because you've got a C&R?
     
  12. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    Section 923 (g), Title 18 U.S.C. requires each Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) to report the theft/loss of a firearm from the licensee's inventory or from the collection of a licensed collector within 48 hours of discovery.....

    Your C&R collection is composed of those arms listed in your bound book.
     
  13. Red Tornado

    Red Tornado Member

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    Technosavant, what are you thinking...getting real information. How can that possibly help to escalate discussions and arguments? :evil:

    Thanks for posting this, I'm going to print it off and put it in my bound book.
    RT
     
  14. Sam Adams

    Sam Adams Member

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    There's an item for discussion...actually, it is a simple thing to find out from the ATF. If you're a C&R dealer, and the license lapses, what happens to the bound book? My understanding is that it is NOT turned in. Now, if you "re-up" is it as if you had never had the C&R before? Or, do they give you the same ID#, as if it had gone dormant, and then they expect the bound book to be "woken up" as well? I don't know the answer.

    One PITA about doing things this way is that you'd likely have to send new license copies to every vendor with whom you deal. Of course, I've never renewed before - you might need to do this anyway. Maybe someone who's been through a renewal can tell us?
     
  15. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    I'm thinking bad idea ... on the off chance you got audited (and letting your C&R lapse just to get a new one might flag you) I imagine they would give you a hard time for any C&R eligible firearms in your possession that are NOT in your bound book even if you had them decades before getting your C&R FFL (this is why many will tell you to put ALL your C&R eligible firearms in your bound book regardless of when you bought them).

    We're not talking about a friendly agency here who wants to make your gun collecting easier ... we're talking about an agency with a history of making up test results for court, stomping kittens, setting up gun show purchasers (asking them if they want to sell the rifle they just bought for a profit and then arresting them for "dealing" without a license), burning down buildings with women and children inside and other assorted jack booted thuggery.

    I recommend you not try to find the limits of the law with these people.

    When you renew you'll have to send out new copies anyway ... the FFLs have expiration dates on them.
     
  16. mrmeval

    mrmeval Member

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    YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE

    http://iweb.tntech.edu/cpardue/youthnotice.html

    DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
    BUREAU.OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS

    YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE

    ATF 1 5300.2 (7-98)



    (1) The misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenileviolence and fatalities.

    (2) Safely storing and securing firearms away from childrenwill help prevent the unlawful possession of handguns by juveniles,stop accidents, and save lives.

    (3) Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited circumstances,anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly possessing a handgun,or any person from selling, delivering, or otherwise transferringa handgun to a person under 18.

    (4) A knowing violation of the prohibition against selling,delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person underthe age of 18 is, under certain circumstances, punishable by upto 10 years in prison.

    FEDERAL LAW

    The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44,provides in pertinent part as follows:

    18 U.S.C. 922(x)

    (x) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver,or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows orhas reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile-
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenileto knowingly possess-
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (3) This subsection does not apply to-
    (A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenileor to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenileif the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile
    (i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching orfarming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile(or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile,with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performingactivities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), targetpractice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe andlawful use of a handgun;
    (ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent orguardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local lawfrom possessing a firearm, except-
    (I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgunin a locked container directly from the place of transfer to aplace at which an activity described in clause (i) is to takeplace and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloadedand in a locked container, directly from the place at which suchan activity took place to the transferor; or

    (II) with respect to ranching or arming activities as describedin clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunitionwith the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legalguardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibitedby Federal, State or local law from posses-sing a firearm;
    (iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile'spossession at all times when a handgun is in the possession ofthe juvenile; and
    (iv) in accordance with State and local law;
    (B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the UnitedStates or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with ahandgun in the line of duty;
    (C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) ofa handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
    (D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile takenin defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruderinto the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which hejuvenile is an invited guest.

    (4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferredto a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is notin violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanentconfiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenilesubsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile,but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun orammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposesof investigation or prosecution.

    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile"means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

    (6)
    (A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the courtshall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent orlegal guardian at all proceedings.
    (B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph(A).
    (C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardianof a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of aviolation of this subsection for good cause shown.

    18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6)

    (6)(A)
    (i) A juvenile who violates section 922(x) shall be fined underthis title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, except thata juvenile described in clause (ii) shall be sentenced to probationon appropriate conditions and shall not be incarcerated unlessthe juvenile fails to comply with a condition of probation.

    (ii) A juvenile is described in this clause .if --

    (I) the offense of which the juvenile is charged is possessionof a handgun or ammunition in violation of section 922(x)(2);and

    (II) the juvenile has not been convicted in any court of anoffense (including an offense under section 922(x) or a similarState law, but not including any other offense consisting of conductthat if engaged in by an adult would not constitute an offense)or adjudicated as a juvenile delinquent for conduct that if engagedin by an adult would constitute an offense. (B) A person otherthan a juvenile who knowingly violates section 922(x)-(i) shallbe fined under this title, imprisoned not more than I year, orboth; and

    (ii) if the person sold, delivered, or otherwise transferreda handgun or ammunition to a juvenile knowing or having reasonablecause to know that the juvenile intended to carry or otherwisepossess or discharge or otherwise use the handgun or ammunitionin the commission of a c~7ime of violence, shall be fined underthis title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

    If you have any questions, contact:

    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
    650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
    Washington, DC 20226

    Phone: (202)927-7770 OR

    Visit our web site at www.atf.treas.gov
     
  17. Technosavant

    Technosavant Member

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    Sorry Red Tornado; silly me in thinking real facts were useful in internet discussions; you are correct that wild guesses and uneducated opinions are more fun. :evil: :neener:

    As far as stolen guns go, these regulations apply only to your C&R collection. Non-C&R guns aren't a concern with regards to your license.
     
  18. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    Sam Adams- I can't cite it but I read in some ATF material that a C&R holder who turns in or doesn't renew his license may simply destroy his log book. Not true, of course, for an FFL dealer who must send his log someplace for the feds to have.

    I don't know if lapsing and renewing would raise any flags. I doubt it.

    Since all they can do is inspect your log book there's not much chance of them noticing unlogged guns laying around since they woul;dn't see my guns without a warrant. And if they did see them, how would they know they were C&R at a glance in most cases? And how would they know you didn't own them before getting the C&R license? And would they really care about any of this since they seem very casual about C&R holders.

    I still think that logging ALL C&R guns is the ATF misreading the regs. I don't think it was intended to read that way.
     
  19. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    The annual inspection includes both your bound book and your inventory.

    You may be thinking of NFA items of which they may request to review the paperwork but not cannot demand to actually see the item without a warrant.
     
  20. Technosavant

    Technosavant Member

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    Note that the "annual inspection" is NOT an inspection carried out once a year. It in an inspection that, at the ATF's request can ONLY happen once a year. If they decide to give a look-see to your collection in November of this year, they have to wait until November of 2007 before doing it again. The ATF usually is busy enough with 01 FFLs, they don't waste much time on us 03 FFLs.

    The one inspection I have read about consisted of "We see this listed in your bound book, may we see the firearm? OK, thanks. Have a nice day."

    And when your license lapses, a C&R licensee does not turn in the book. You are allowed to torch it.
     
  21. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    I may be wrong but I am certain that I recall the C&R inspection is the book only unless they have some specific gun in mind, such as the case cited above. I suspect that they were following that particular gun for some reason and wanted to make sure it was properly logged. I had this happen years ago when I had a 001 FFL. Bought 3 guns at a police auction and 2 weeks later the ATF called and wanted to inspect me. When the agent arrived he checked my book and then asked to see those 3 specific guns. He said some dealers who bought at that auction didn't log the purchases and when checked they couldn't produce the guns, either, meaning they had sold them off the book. Stupid. So now they were checking up on all the guns sold from that sale. Mine were all logged and physically present.
     
  22. DogBonz

    DogBonz Member

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    OK question.

    Who is a "non-licensee". Is this a person who does not have a C&R, or some one who does not have a gun license?

    thanks
     
  23. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    A non-licensee is a person who does not have an FFL. Most states do not require a license or permit to purchase or possess firearms.
     
  24. elric

    elric Member

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    Hmmm, what about things that become a C&R after you get your license? I have my grandmother's Winchester 94 that was made in 1958. Its not a C&R yet, but will be in 2 years. If I sell it after 2008 (no plans to do so, but "what if"), do I need to fill out a disposition record, since it was a C&R when I disposed of it? Am I worrying to much about little details? :)
     
  25. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    You are only required to enter a C&R in your bound book if you acquire it AFTER you get your C&R FFL. If you haven't acquired it as a C&R, then you can't dispose of it as a C&R.
     
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