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C&R to C&R sale legality

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Novus Collectus, Aug 6, 2007.

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  1. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    I was wondering since the ATF says that a same state resident 03 licensee to 03 licensee sale of C&Rs (if legal in their own state) is not subject to the Brady law, would a purchase of a C&R made for another licensee be considered a "straw purchase"?
    http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#p12

    The reason I ask is because of some three C&R rifle deals some distributors have, or a multiple purchase to save on shipping. Now this would not fall under dealing since it would be a sale not for profit:
    http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/faq.htm

    I assume there could also a difference if the other dealers gave the money before the purchase instead of one peson buying all three and later selling them to the other collectors, but the intent would still be there if that was the reason for the purchase. So if it is considered a straw purchase for a licensee to purchase for another licensee, then I could see it applying either way.

    This is what I think, if an 01 FFL can purchase a gun for another 01 or even an 03 FFL and then transfer to them by recording in their bound books, then why would a C&R purchase made by one 03 FFL for another 03 licensee be any different if not for profit?

    (I asked a mod if it was ok to start this legal question thread in this forum)
     
  2. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    A straw purchase is when someone legally able to buy a gun does so on behalf of an actual end user who is prohibited. If everyone involved has an FFL (even C&R) then nobody is prohibited and this would not be considered a straw purchase.

    However, the ATF makes it clear (by repeating about 1,000 times per page) that a C&R is a license for personal collecting. So technically you should only be buying what you intend to collect. But many C&R holders will buy multiple units, select the best of the lot, and sell off the rest. Apparently this is tolerated by the ATF as long as it doesn't become obvious that it's being done to turn a profit. If the buyer of the unwanted units also has a C&R and you are merely selling unwanted items then there is certainly no problem at all.
     
  3. Niner

    Niner Member

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    Your intent seems within the law to me

    Seems to me that what you are talking about is making a group purchase among C&R licensed collectors. If I were going to be the one making the purchase, I'd do it and put it in my book as making all the purchases and then making the transfer with the date, name and address, license number, dob, and drivers license number of those I transfer the weapons to being recorded.

    But...you can always call the local Batf and get an opinion first.
     
  4. joab

    joab Member

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    No it is not
    As explained on the back of form 4473
    A straw purchase is when you purchase a firearm for someone using other than your own money, period

    As far as the C&R licensees go
    It is pretty much common practice to buy multiple guns, keep the best a sell off the rest.
    Sometimes leaving you with a free or almost free gun

    When selling between C&Rs you still have to record the sell with their DL if within the same state

    If you are selling to make a living instead to enhance you collection then you need an 01
     
  5. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    But this would be a group purchase among licensees using one license for the interstate transfer. The rifles would be bought with the intent of either selling to someone in particular (licensee), or by using another licensee's money to buy for them.

    The arrangement would be made on a public forum, so obeying the law for moral reasons aside, it would be foolish break it publicly with plently of accessible electronic evidence so obviosuly obtainable.
    I wish there was a good way to know the answer of legality without having to wait on hold forever calling the Baltimore ATF field office.
     
  6. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    Niner, I hear ya.

    By the way, if it is a C&R to C&R FFL transfer, the FFL license number has to be recorded, not the driver's license.
     
  7. Niner

    Niner Member

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    Well Novus

    I said that....didn't I? Guess I didn't make clear what the first "license" was.:D

     
  8. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    I meant you don't need both :)
    I should have said "just the FFL license bumber is required" when dealing with an FFL.
     
  9. DMK

    DMK Member

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    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/transcripts/ltfour.htm
    There is no Form 4473 when an FFL purchases a firearm.
     
  10. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    That is how I see it too, but is there any grey area of the law pertaining to such a scenario, or other applicability of a law to such a situation we are not aware of? I doubt there is, but I would hate to do something that got a few other fellow gun owners in trouble along with me.
     
  11. joab

    joab Member

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    Face to face or in state sales require only a DL
    The C&R allows you to ship interstate to another licensee

    It's up to the buyer to keep his book up,not me
    I only have to log it out of my book to an identifiable person
     
  12. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    That is what I used to think till someone pointed this out to me:

    http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm
     
  13. joab

    joab Member

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    There is a few of us in trouble down Fla way
    But then again I never asked if they were actually C&R holders
     
  14. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    They didn't tell you then how can you be held accountable, right?
     
  15. FieroCDSP

    FieroCDSP Member

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    If several C&R's get together some money and buy eligible guns at a group buy price, and everyone gets their guns for the same price, just saving a bit on shipping, then it's a group buy and not reselling. Therefore all you're doing is saving on the original costs and maybe shipping, and it is neither a straw purchase, nor reselling. BATFE might have a different view, but if they do, they're dumb. All you're doing is recieving them from the selling FFL, and transfering them to other 03 FFL's at no cost(because they already paid for them to the original seller). I'm no lawyer or BATFE expert, so you might want to check with the field office anyway.
     
  16. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    joab-

    The fact that there is always so much debate and disagreement over gun laws shows that they are confusing and too complex. The laws are written by over-officious bureaucrats and the ATF is really bad about having conflicting regulations. But in the case of straw purchases, the key element is the intent to get around the law and provide a gun to a prohibited person.

    I think the statement about “using money not your own” is just a simplified explanation that really doesn’t go to the heart of the issue, which is, as I said, buying a gun on behalf of a disqualified person. You need the criminal intent in order to be breaking the law and the criminal intent in the straw purchase is to get around the prohibition for disqualified buyers. It is possible, and I cite an example at the end of this commentary, to buy a gun with someone else’s money without criminal intent.

    Rather than trying to understand the mumbo-jumbo put out by the ATF, read what the federal prosecutors say about the law. It is they who decide whether to prosecute and they have some clear ideas about what constitutes a straw purchase. Here is a quote from a U.S. attorney on what constitutes a straw purchase. Note that no mention is made about whose money is used. It’s the intent to deliver the gun to a disqualified person that is the illegal act.

    "'Don't lie for the other guy' says it all," said U.S. Attorney Charlton. "If you're buying a firearm for someone who can't buy one on their own - you'll go to prison. Licensed firearms dealers cannot sell guns to people who are prohibited from possessing them."

    Charlton added: "Often, people who are prohibited from owning guns try and get around the law by having friends or relatives purchase the guns for them. This is a straw purchase. Illegal firearms traffickers often use straw purchasers to buy guns for them so their own name is not recorded in gun store records. Then they resell these guns to criminals. So when a person is asked to buy a gun for someone else they must understand that they are being asked to commit a federal felony. When a person makes a straw purchase, they are not just risking prison time; they are arming gang members, felons, and illegal aliens. These offenses will not be tolerated in the District of Arizona."

    Another U.S. attorney statement regarding straw purchases.

    According to the indictment, and facts admitted by Stacy Day, she purchased several firearms for a convicted felon. Under federal law, convicted felons cannot possess firearms. Nevertheless, convicted felons often recruit "straw purchasers" to acquire firearms on their behalf. "Straw purchasers," however, often disregard their own criminal liability for lying on their application to buy firearms.

    United States Attorney Canary stated: "It is a serious federal crime to purchase firearms on behalf of a convicted felon or anyone prohibited under federal law from possessing firearms. While buying guns, Mrs. Day lied to circumvent safeguards designed to prevent criminals from arming themselves. Such action shows a reckless disregard for the safety of our community. In the Middle District of Alabama, straw purchasers should beware that if they lie for a felon, they will become felons themselves."

    This is from the NRA web site.

    It is also illegal to buy a gun for a prohibited person (called a "straw purchase") or provide a gun to a prohibited person by any other means. These are felony offenses punishable by 10 years in prison and a fine of $10,000.

    The key aspect of all these definitions is the part about providing a gun to a prohibited person. This is the necessary criminal intent in trying to circumvent the law.

    About 20 years ago a local store had a sale on Ruger 10/22s. Great price, but limited to stock on hand. A guy who wanted one had to work that day so he asked a buddy who was going to go and buy one to get one for him, too. He gave him the money. He bought two rifles, filled out the 4473 and gave one rifle to the buddy who had to work and miss the sale. Some would say that this was a straw purchase using a strict interpretation that any purchase made by any person other than the actual end user is a straw purchase. But no prosecutor would agree because there was no criminal intent. The working buddy was not prohibited from buying or owning the gun and nobody was trying to circumvent the law.
     
  17. joab

    joab Member

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    Intent doesn't matter
    A straw purchase is fully explained by the ATF created form that we all must fill out and sign prior to buying a gun
    If you intentionally buy a gun through criminal means then there is criminal intent
    .
    It is not that some would say this, it is that the law says this
    And it has nothing to do with the actual end user, a gift is perfectly legal
    This is all fully explained on the back of form 4473

    It is true that felons use straw purchases to acquire guns illegally but that is not the defining aspect of a straw purchase
    If you gift a gun to a person you know to be prohibited you are committing a crime we all agree with that.

    If you use father O'Rourke's money to buy him a gun because he doesn't think it is proper for him to be seen buying a gun, you have committed a strawpurchase
    If you use the gangbanger next door's money to buy him a gun because he knows it isn't proper for him to be seen buying a gun you have committed a strawpurchase

    What is the common denominator here?
     
  18. joab

    joab Member

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    I'll make a deal with you

    If you read the part of the BATF form that I am talking about and can logically come to any other conclusion, I'll change my opinion
     
  19. Neo-Luddite

    Neo-Luddite Member

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    The problem, to my thinking, is a question of scale. If you started buying crates of C/R weapons (think yugo sks's) and passing the savings along to other C/R lic. pals---someone at ATF may decide that you're engaging in dealing on that type 3. The saving grace might be if everyone is a type 3 and the log books are spot-on accurate and up to date. It could be an ugly cascade effect if anyone in the group has a sloppy log. On the face of things, it seems like you might be poking a stick at a (potential) hornets nest to save a few bucks.

    But hey, if you can't collect guns with the thing---whta good is it?
     
  20. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    It would be just a few gun purchases, maybe three here and three there every few months at most......and there would be no profit made because everything would be at cost.
     
  21. Neo-Luddite

    Neo-Luddite Member

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    and there would be no profit made

    You're using logic in a space where often none seems to apply! Good luck and above all; have everyone involved double check each others logs--you know, make a party of it!

    -Mike
     
  22. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    Can't agree with the priest scenario. The others, yes, because they are all prohibited buyers. The priest isn't (I assume) so no crime.

    I have read all the ATF regs and find them typical double speak. You can find differing definitions and varying descriptions and total contradictions. Like I said, the fact that so many people have so many different interpretations tells us how fouled up the laws are.

    I have no doubt that a few ATF agents would see the priest scenario as illegal. But, I can just about guarantee you that no prosecutor would be interested in pursuing the case (if it could be made) against your priest since he's not a prohibited buyer and the purpose of the law is prevent prohibited persons from buying guns. The purpose of the law is not to keep a friend from doing some shopping for the priest.
     
  23. tulsamal

    tulsamal Member

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    ATF used to say a straw person purchase was when you bought a gun for somebody who is prohibited from buying that gun. But they have changed their mind on that. If you find current regs, there is no mention of "prohibited." It simply says, "buying a gun for another person." You are allowed to buy a gun to give as a gift. But you aren't allowed to take the other person's money and go buy a gun for them. It doesn't matter in the least if they can legally own the gun.

    As others said, we don't make the rules and they don't have to make sense.

    Gregg
     
  24. gezzer

    gezzer Member

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    You are talking transfers between FFL holders, There is NO STRAW SALE.
    With a C&R you may not be in the business of making a profit. Group buying with shipping to one C&R and then transferring to the other C&R’s at no profit is within the idea of the law.
     
  25. DMK

    DMK Member

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    There is no 4473 form with a C&R or FFL purchase.
     
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