Caliber Over Kill

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Fella's;

Now keep in mind here, the tongue is quite firmly lodged in the cheek. But. I do believe that using the 16" Naval rifle on coyotes in Central Park NYC could be considered overkill. I can also understand that some, depending on where the mayor was located at the time, may argue.

900F
 
I believe in using MORE THAN ENOUGH. I believe that using BARELY ENOUGH AIN'T ENOUGH. I believe that USING 10X MORE THAN ENOUGH is dangerous and silly.
 
ApacheCoTodd, Post number 64 was actually a new thread that was started and since the subject was mirrored to this older thread, Sam "merged" them together rather than having 2 threads with the exact same subject matter.
 
What does merged mean in this post? I'm sure once explained, I'll have a DUHH! moment.
FFIL got it.

If we end up with two (or more) threads on the same subject at the same time, or close enough, we'll often "merge" the two into one thread. Keeps the site a little tidier, but more importantly, it gives the people who want to discuss that topic the benefit of seeing everything their fellow members have to say on the subject. Rather than Group A posting here, Group B posting over there, and a few folks responding to both, just repeating themselves.
 
in my experience, over 40 years of hunting, i have seen many whitetails, shot well, that ran 50 150 yards. but every one that i have ever shot with my 300 win mag, or 45/70, have droped on the spot, save one. and that one ran about 60 yards. because the bullet went through a 4" oak tree before hitting the buck. before my magnum days, i used a 30-30. and chased several animals. fortunately not more than 80-100 yards. my wife shot an 8 point with that 30-30, using winchester silvertips, at about 40 yards. she hit one of the lungs and the heart. and we had to chase that one almost a mile. he just was not going to give up, until there was no blood left in him. personally, when someone says to me that my rifles are overkill, i ask them how far they have to chase deer, and then tell them i only have to walk to where they were standing at the time of the shot.
 
Cartridge wars will be a "forever topic", I reckon. I guess that compared to the WinMag, the .243 is a pipsqueak. Howsomever, I have a couple of dozen kills with the .243 and I don't recall any of them needing any chasing or tracking. Pretty much just folded up and quit standing. Mostly at around 100 to maybe 150 yards...

I've done about the same with my '06, as far as any tracking: Didn't have to.

I'd figure that either would be overkill on a prairie dog, though. :D
 
FFIL & SAM - thanks for the explanation.

As for the thread - I see vastly different points of view with regards to what constitutes overkill.

I guess a 300 WinMag for varmints isn't over kill if one can afford it, the condition of the carcass is of no matter and one gives not a whit about overtravel.

Me personally - well, I believe the concept of overkill does exist as evidenced by a young hunter listening too intently to the stories of old time turkey hunters spinning yarns about the near mythical contest between an elusive, wily and near psychic quarry requiring - on the part of the hunter - the abilities of a sniper and the equipment of a ninja. Over learning and over gunning/loading resulted in a righteously exploded - almost calymored turkey which laying there wasted and dead was a result of overkill.

Another possible perspective could be not necessarily in the result but in the preparation for the hunt. A friend of mine, in preparing for his first elk hunt selected a new 7mm Mag and in sighting it, found the recoil a bit of a surprise. Once committed to the rifle he wouldn't consider changing but the practice firing left him unenthused about continued training so, off to the great elk north he goes.

Now, the combination of tales of super-ballistic acts on the part of the 7mm, a lack of experience with elk, trepidation on the part of Jim regarding recoil and a lack of experience with the rifle for the same reason led to more than one multiple-ass-shot elk littering the region. For these reasons, in his preparation for the hunt - I would say 7mm Mag for him at that time was overkill.

I can't help but feel, less rifle would have led to more familiarity with it (more practice), required better stalking(less perceived range) and even if the first couple go arounds didn't result in a filled tag - would have made him a better hunter. To me, it was overkill in preparation for the hunt for that man while a 7mm is by no means overkill in general for an elk.
 
to me overkill is useing a gun that is to much for the person shooting it, when i was younger I had trouble shooting my 308 because the recoil was too much for me and i developed a flinching problem and I couldn't hit what i was shooting at. i went to a 257 roberts that has very light recoil. now I dont have any problem with recoil and hunt with a 7mm remington magnum. the bottom line is its more important to use a gun you can hit your target with! I love my 7mm mag but more because of its flat trajectory than the extra power. a good shot with a smaller gun is much better than a bad shot with a big gun!
 
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Im with emg ive found that for the most part guys who claim that a certain caliber is overkill really just mean they cant handle it or wont take the time to shoot it enough to master a bigger gun. Guns up to even the 300 wby and 338mag surely dont recoil so much that they will physicaly hurt even a teen age shooter. My daugters routinely shot them with they were young. they were never told that recoil is painful and considered guns like 7mags easy to shoot. If you cant handle or dont want to take the time to master a bigger gun thats fine. Alot of hunters dont shoot 20 rounds in a year out of there guns. but it erks me to read guys slam them because they just are to wimpy to shoot one.
 
Someone brought up a good point, with some people equating overkill with a weapon that kicks too hard or costs too much to shoot for the job you're doing. I remember shooting my father's old Remington 700 in 7mm Rem Mag when I was 14 or 15. I shot it twice, and had no wish to shoot it again. Same with my father. Granted, this was back when Remington's idea of a buttpad was a hard rubber block that was about as soft and flexible as the wood it was attached to. But the point stands, I definitely would not want to put myself through sighting in and practicing with that thing just to hunt a squirrel. What would I get myself? A very sore shoulder, and, if I was lucky, a small tuft of squirrel fur; everything else would be blown away.
 
"Overkill" = inefficiency (cost, pain, weight/bulk) + excessive risk of unintended damage (shoot through, ricochet, where'd-that-bullet-go?) + diminishing returns (destroyed game)

And most of that is mitigate-able, or of subjective value.
 
I was at the range yesterday watching a guy shoot his new Marlin lever gun chambered in some gargantuan round that he proudly told me was developed in the 1800's to shoot buffalo or the like. The rounds looked like my thumb

Sounds like a .45-70, if it was a Marlin. People can mis-manage even relatively minor calibers, so just because one guy can't handle a .45-70 doesn't mean the caliber is overkill.

I've only killed 1 deer with a .45-70. But not only did the deer fall decisively, no excess meet was spoiled. As some others have pointed out, higher-velocity rounds frequently tend to cause more tissue damage.

Bullet construction is an important part of the equation. Distance from the target can be, as well. A relatively fragile bullet hitting an animal at close range may result in a large, shallow wound and a slow death for the animal. That same bullet at distance may have perfect expansion and penetration for a clean kill. My buddy Byron lost a deer while using a 150-grain CoreLokt from a .300 WinMag because of this. When he walked to where the buck had been hit, part of its shoulder was lying on the ground. It ran away on three legs and died. Byron went to 180-grain bullets or premium bullets with sturdier construction after that.

John
 
I don't go in for overkill because of how our Dad raised us up as kids.

I continue to hunt deer with my older 30-30 within the forest and foothills. It's never let me down. I've also had good luck with 35 Remington, 44 MAG, and .308 rifles.

TR
 
What bothers me is someone that says a 338 wm is way to much for anything in north america let alone for deer. In reality most 338 wm loads will do less damage than many "normal" deer calibers that are high velocity, expand rapidly, and transfer much of its energy right into the animal. It just a matter of people THINKING that just because a 338 is a bigger bullet than a 270 that it will blow a deer in half. Ridiculous.
 
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...just like that 1800 fps . 45-70 had perfect performance on the buck I shot...just like the performance of the .35 Whelen when I used it. (It was underkill when Byron used his Whelen on a hog*. He stopped using CoreLokts all together after that. )


*took 2 shoulder shots, one on each side
 
If you look around on You tube there is a video of some jackass killing a white tail doe with a Barret 50cal. It literally turned the deer inside out. That my firends is over kill. Had it been Al qaeda not so much.
 
If you look around on You tube there is a video of some jackass killing a white tail doe with a Barret 50cal. It literally turned the deer inside out. That my firends is over kill. Had it been Al qaeda not so much.

Unless that person was using a HE round of some sort, I find that statement to be highly suspect at the least. A white-tail really wouldn't have enough resistant mass to sufficiently cause a .50cal round to expand enough to dump all that energy into the body cavity. Now I am assuming you are speaking of a full load .50cal from a Barret cooking off at normal speeds. Even at 800 yards, that bullet would zip right through a deer leaving 2 .50cal sized holes.
 
A high-energy bullet into a full paunch definitely creates hydraulic pressures which are beyond containment by the hide and side-meat muscle. Little or no expansion of the bullet is needed.

A fifty on a little whitetail would be about like a .243 on a jackrabbit. Yuck.
 
Unless that person was using a HE round of some sort, I find that statement to be highly suspect at the least. A white-tail really wouldn't have enough resistant mass to sufficiently cause a .50cal round to expand enough to dump all that energy into the body cavity. Now I am assuming you are speaking of a full load .50cal from a Barret cooking off at normal speeds. Even at 800 yards, that bullet would zip right through a deer leaving 2 .50cal sized holes.

Didn't really think before you wrote all that, eh?
 
Didn't really think before you wrote all that, eh?

Of course I did. Do you realize the resistant mass needed to open up a 700+gr bullet? The reason .50cal is good for personnel is the size of the bullet itself. That's a big bullet to pass through a human body. Yes it will transfer a lot of energy, but "blow up" a deer? Naaaaaa I highly doubt it. Now, if you have a VERY soft point that will open up that large mass enough to cause transfer of energy, then yeah I can see it popping a deer paunch like a water balloon, but anyone know where these can be obtained? Maybe a match grade hollow point but all the match grade BMG ammo I have ever seen is solid lathe turned.
 
Of course I did. Do you realize the resistant mass needed to open up a 700+gr bullet? The reason .50cal is good for personnel is the size of the bullet itself. That's a big bullet to pass through a human body. Yes it will transfer a lot of energy, but "blow up" a deer? Naaaaaa I highly doubt it. Now, if you have a VERY soft point that will open up that large mass enough to cause transfer of energy, then yeah I can see it popping a deer paunch like a water balloon, but anyone know where these can be obtained? Maybe a match grade hollow point but all the match grade BMG ammo I have ever seen is solid lathe turned.

Still haven't watched the video, eh?
 
Most people I would think feel like something from 243 up through 30-06 are proper for deer. If you are going to get out of that box I would rather see somebody go up than down provided you can hit where you are aiming with it.
 
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