Caliber vs Capacity- What's more valuable in a CCW?

[oldfool]

5 shots divided between 3 suspects under fire means you might hit 2 of them with a single round...
I agree with everything Lawdawg45 said there

but LEOs are obliged to kick in drug house doors, they best not do that with only 5 to 7 rounds, and they prefer to do it with a team wearing vests and carrying carbines, not One Riot One Ranger

average-joe me, one ranger, home alone with my 15 round hi-cap 10MM and two spare mags, 3 or more bangers kick in my door without warning, all heavily armed with hi-cap whiznbangers, fact is I might get one or two, but I am going to go down before I can dump 5 to 7 rounds, much less 15.. and absent CNS hits, the guys I hit are real likely to crawl away or be carried out by their shootin' buddies.

civilian self defense on the street or at home is not Under Siege, and will not be unless America turns into a middle east combat zone

If you really think you against the many "Last man Standing" movie scenario applies to you, fork up the bucks for a full auto license and all that goes with, accessorized with kevlar and night vision googles

 

[Geckgo]

the OP seemed to be asking about a CCW caliber for home defense. Home defense is not a CCW caliber, IMO. my 45 sits on the nightstand with two underloaded mags. 10 bullets in each 13rnd mag. Why?? because I feel like it and I highly doubt that I'd ever get to number 11 defending myself with a pistol. If I do, then I have an extra mag.

We are not trying to call the op ignorant, just saying that he already has a good CCW and if he's comfortable with it and wants a gun for better home defense, most of us would rather pick up a shotgun or a rifle.

 

[oldfool]

my 45 sits on the nightstand with two underloaded mags.
good choice

but I settle for just a 6" 357 mag revolver, six in cylinder, 38+p JHP
one on my nightstand... and one on her nightstand

 

[Bob72]

Yesterday fired at three gallon water filled jugs w/380 ( 7 rnds) loaded w/magsafe.and.gold dot jhp..both ruptured the hell out of the jugs.
Then fired jhp 9mm (17 rnds) and again ruptured the jugs... Have gone from missing a 6 inch circle at 30 ft to firing 3 inch groups. Practice and situational awareness. Figured both 'small' calibers will work if I hit the bad guys. Am working on jams and magazine exchanges now. We, wife and I are targets at 72 and 53 with disabilities. So, practice, practice, practice and hope that I never have to use it.

 

[Lawdawg45]

"A: CCW is not LEO. CCWers don't deal with suspects."

Really Mav? Pure semantics my friend. Does it really matter the label of an individual or individuals that have weapons pointed at you or your family?

LD45

 

[mavracer]

Really Mav? Pure semantics my friend. Does it really matter the label of an individual or individuals that have weapons pointed at you or your family?

the kettle is black

Really Lawdog? Pure semantics my friend. Does number of rounds in your gun really matter when an individual or individuals already have weapons pointed at you or your family?

 

[481]

Really Mav? Pure semantics my friend. Does it really matter the label of an individual or individuals that have weapons pointed at you or your family?

Really Lawdog? Pure semantics my friend. Does number of rounds in your gun really matter when an individual or individuals already have weapons pointed at you or your family?

Yes, pure semantics. Lawdawg45 pointed out that the label one applies to one's assailant(s) is a (rightfully) semantic distinction in regards to the statement that you made above

A. CCW is not LEO. CCWers don't deal with suspects.

and in response you changed the topic of the discussion mid-course to one of, "Does [the] number of rounds in your gun really matter when..." when he explained as quoted below:

Does number of rounds in your gun really matter when an individual or individuals already have weapons pointed at you or your family?

It is quite evident that you are being intentionally obtuse.

Lighten up.

 

[mavracer]

It is quite evident that you are being intentionally obtuse.

Yes I guess I am being obtuse. however no more obtuse than arguing the semantics of what we call BGs instead of discusing the error in tactics of thinking 5 rounds isn't enough to get lead into 3 BGs. Because ultimatly if the 3 BGs already have guns pointed at you and your family you have already lost. :banghead:

Please remember I'm not the one who equated "3 suspects" to "an individual or individuals already have weapons pointed at you or your family"

 

[Loosedhorse]

Have you actually read your first mumbo jumbo answer.
"Both so maybe you should pick something in the middle unless you want more power"

So, now you have stooped to lying. Your quote above is meant to suggest that I said the words in quotes...but I did not.

As to answering OPs question
Mindset>Skillset>Toolset in that order, always in that order.

Oh, I get it: if someone asks any equipment question, you always answer "Mindset>Skillset>Toolset". To both imply that they didn't know that (absent your graciously supplying a portion of your superior knowledge), and to just generally be no help at all. Great.

It is quite evident that you are being intentionally obtuse.

Yes I guess I am being obtuse.

+1. And now we can add dishonest.

 

[dhancock]

Hmmmm.

It sounds like a religious war here.

Here are a few thoughts:

• The original question was about CCW firearms.
• Large capacity generally means double-stack and less concealability.
• The statistics I have read concerning actual firefights involving trained police officers show a fairly low hit ratio to shots fired. This might argue in favor of large capacity. Or better training....
• Consider also the weight and bulk of two additional magazines (a fairly standard suggestion whether talking about autoloaders or revolvers)
• A J-frame is as wide as most double-stacked autoloaders, but only at one point. This is arguably easier to conceal.

As for training, I have never been in a fire fight, even when I served as a police officer. Shooting at silhouettes at 7 yards makes me familiar with the firearm but cannot prepare me for what will happen in the event that I need to call upon those skills to save my life or that of another. And I hope I never have to find out.

Bottom line (at least for me): I will go with the best compromise for me, which is a J-frame.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

I would say just get a Eaa witness or glock in 10mm that way you have both. But then again if you can't hit anything with it your better off using something you can.

 

[mavracer]

So, now you have stooped to lying. Your quote above is meant to suggest that I said the words in quotes...but I did not.

Easy there. I just don't know where the summation mark key is. so ignorant maybe but not a lier.

 

[taters123]

For home defence a glock 20 with a light and laser.

For ccw a glock 36

For cleaning these glocks. Prolix

 

[amazon shooter]

A real life shootout

A lot has been said about what one needs for self defense when the forces of darkness decend upon you. There are threads and threads about stopping power, about how much ammo you should have, etc.

Here is a true story to consider. It happened about 20 years ago, here, in the Amazon. Three men with single-shot shotguns (16 ga.) decided to rob and probably kill a gringo while he was sleeping one night. They didn't know the gringo had a 5-shot .38 special Chief's Special. It was a shootout in the bedroom at point blank range and it only took a few seconds before both sides fired all their shots. Before the smoke reached the ceiling, two BGs were dead and one BG wounded, who fled the scene. The gringo, was wounded and nearly bled to death, but recovered in the hospital with only a few missing fingers.

When it happens, it's going down fast and violent - you will be dead or dying in a few seconds or on your way to the hospital with life threatening wounds and if you are very lucky, you may walk away from it without a scratch.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I'd much rather have 17 or 18 rounds of 9mm and be a proficient shooter, versus only having 7 or 8 rounds of 45 acp. The size of the gun is the same, so why not, capacity can never hurt.

 

[Lawdawg45]

"Yes I guess I am being obtuse. however no more obtuse than arguing the semantics of what we call BGs instead of discusing the error in tactics of thinking 5 rounds isn't enough to get lead into 3 BGs. Because ultimatly if the 3 BGs already have guns pointed at you and your family you have already lost."

I understand we're coming at this from 2 different angles, you being a factory worker and me being a retired LEO, but I've personally seen the aftermath of many a home invasion with multiple aggressors (new term for you!), and I've also been in a firefight. The documented FBI data doesn't lie, accuracy for civilian and LEO alike can drop as much as 50%, and if you're standing there with your 5 shot revolver, the best case scenario is that you might hit 2 of them with one round, hence why capacity is paramount. The days of Mayberry are long gone unfortunately.

LD45

 

[mavracer]

The documented FBI data doesn't lie, accuracy for civilian and LEO alike can drop as much as 50%, and if you're standing there with your 5 shot revolver, the best case scenario is that you might hit 2 of them with one round, hence why capacity is paramount.

Well since the FBI data don't lie. I'm better off with a 5 shot revolver than you are with a 15 shot auto. Because according to their statistics I'll have about 80% hits 4 for 5 where as LEO over all is about 20% hits 3/15.
BTW quite a few factory workers are former military and LEO.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Easy there killer. I just don't know where the summation mark key is. so ignorant maybe but not a lier.

Facile excuse for your lie. If you wanted to "rephrase" my answer, you could have made it clear that you were doing so, instead of putting it in quotes--or are you claiming ignorance regarding what quotation marks mean? A self-defense savant, but a little light on punctuation?

Your whole line of "argument" has been false, implying that if one asks an "equipment" question, one must be ignoring all other important factors.

Oh, and since you have decided to call me "killer," rather than aplogize for your dishonesty, I will from here on refer to you as "liar." Liar.

 

[Mike1234567]

I'm not directing this at ANYONE but, ya know, I was very VERY happy to get away from all the "B-wording" when I divorced my ex. TG I can simply ignore all of the "B-wording" in forums.

 

[Lawdawg45]

"Well since the FBI data don't lie. I'm better off with a 5 shot revolver than you are with a 15 shot auto. Because according to their statistics I'll have about 80% hits 4 for 5 where as LEO over all is about 20% hits 3/15."

Inventive math skills there, and I'd like to see a link to your 20% hit rate for LEO's. Don't get me wrong, if you feel confident and secure with 5 shots from a revolver have at it, but I would refrain from making a public recommendation, especially to new, inexperienced shooters.

LD45

 

[mavracer]

this took about 2 minutes to find from a CBS report

A confidential NYPD report indicates an increase in every category of shots fired on the job, accompanied by a disturbing drop in accuracy.

Of 276 police bullets fired in gunfights in 2005 only 23 found their target -- an 8 percent accuracy rate. Comparing the trend to the year before we see gunfight bullet volume up 200 percent, while the accuracy has deteriorated significantly.

and another
The source of this article is The Virginia Coalition of Police & Deputy Sherrifs.

In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%
3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%
7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

 

[orionengnr]

First off, I would advise a few posters to review the rules they agreed to abide by when they joined this forum. To wit--attack the argument, not the individual.

Okay, back on topic.

IMHO, there is no "right" answer. There is only a "right for me" answer.

For me, I carry what I shoot best (which is either a 1911 or an S&W revolver, usually an N-frame), in a cartridge in which I have confidence (.45 acp/10mm/.for semi auto pistols and 45LC/.41 Mag for revolvers).

Note that none of them has a surfeit of capacity. If I have three or more people shooting at me, I accept the fact that my chances of prevailing are....ah... somewhat diminished. Hell, how many people go 1v2 and come out ahead?

On the other hand, I do have some measure of confidence that I can shoot my chosen platforms reasonably well, and the cartridges I have chosen are reasonably effective if I do my part.

I believe that I have accounted for the variables as best I can.

YMMV.

 

[Art Eatman]

This thread reminds me of a plane landing in Vegas on a hot, windy summer day. Every now and then it touches down and finally stays there.

Way too many posts in this thread are nothing but off-topic silly squabbling and it sorta looks like some of the egos never touch down at all.

Enuf.