Calibers and loads for high performance in short action rifles

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1stmarine

1stmarine

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Hi,
This is a continuation of another thread where we started discussing multiple calibers that was deviating a little from the original subject.
@Gtscotty asked me for some information specific to the 7mm-08 in order to analyze trajectories and ballistics.
So for the purpose of keeping things organized I created this one where we are going to post factory loads and load information about several calibers offspring and/or around the 308 case.
260R, 6.5(both), 243, 7mm-08.
Please feel free to post any loads you might have and the specifics of your rifle, barrel and the use you have for it.
This is not just restricted to f-class use or any given competition but whatever purpose including practical use like hunting
or whatever purpose one might have even if it is tail gate steel shooting fun.
 
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This is some preliminary information based on what started discussing.
More details will follow...

Manufactures resist to give us decent high performance loads but there are some to start with for reference..


index.php



This is a new round that for who knows what reason is not available in 162gr amax, I mean ELD or ELDX now.
Possibly because remignton is not pushing for their products and making rifles with the proper twist.

Still a pretty good round.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/7mm-08-rem-150-gr-eld-x-precision-hunter#!/


7mm-08 Rem 150 gr ELD-X® Precision Hunter®
Item #85578 | 20/Box
Accuracy and terminal performance are the cornerstones of Hornady® Precision Hunter™ factory loaded ammunition. Great care has been given by Hornady® engineers to develop superior, match-accurate hunting loads that allow the ELD-X® bullet to achieve its maximum ballistic potential.

Propellants used in the Precision Hunter™ ammunition line are clean burning and loaded to uniform capacity for consistent shot to shot results regardless of temperature. This attention to detail provides the highest levels of accuracy and performance uniformity for the most demanding and diverse hunting situations.


I you want to reload is simple. Lets take these bullets....

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/7mm-284-162-gr-eld-match#!/

Item #
7mm .284"
ELD® Match
.287
.670 (G1)
.338 (G7)
162 GR

Then work up a charge of varget up to 41 tor 42 grains of varget depending on what brass, your magazine and coal allows
and then will get 2700 to 2800fps depending on barrel. The best results so far from a Remington 700 blueprinted and with a 24" krieger and 1:8 twist.

Varget or R17 both very simple to work up a reload.

It all depends on what you need. Can do varmints from 110gr, deer loads with 120gr TTSX, that will hit like a 270,
Elk loads with 150-175gr like partitions or long range with 160 to 175gr including CNC solids and depending on throat and magazine situation.
 
I assembled a large format AR earlier this year in 7mm-08. I went back and forth between 7mm-08 and 6.5C, and finally decided upon 7mm-08 for two reasons: 1) I already have a 7mm-08 bolt gun and reloading supplies, and 2) I wanted something a little different. My rifle has a fixed stock and a 19inch, 1:8.5 twist barrel. I will predominantly shoot paper with it, and maybe take it out deer hunting. Where I live in Michigan, most of the public ranges are 100yds max. I just joined a club this summer that has a 600yd range that I haven't used yet (limited hours). I dream of going out West some day to hunt and shoot.

Here are a few data points from my 19inch, 7mm-08:

120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip averages 3032fps with CFE223 (1.5gr under book max)
Hornady Precision Hunter 150ELD-X averages 2685fps (this is one you listed above)
162gr Amax at 2599fps avg with H414

These were magazine fed (<2.83in), and I could have pushed them a little harder. Based on this, I can see where you could easily get 2700-2800 with the 162Amax in a 24inch barrel.

J
 
458MinMag said:
Here are a few data points from my 19inch, 7mm-08:

120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip averages 3032fps with CFE223 (1.5gr under book max)
Hornady Precision Hunter 150ELD-X averages 2685fps (this is one you listed above)
162gr Amax at 2599fps avg with H414

These were magazine fed (<2.83in), and I could have pushed them a little harder. Based on this, I can see where you could easily get 2700-2800 with the 162Amax in a 24inch barrel.

J
Click to expand...

Hi J, thanks for the contribution.
If you don't mind, later on I will put the data on a table so it is easier for folks to read.
Those are nice numbers for a gas gun from just 19". I am glad more people are building ARs and Bolt Acition with this chambering.
Just for reference the 150gr ELDX from my 21" AR produces 2707fps average over a 10 shot string (8 twist). Accuracy is well below moa.
The same load from the R-700 with 24" Krieger 8 twist, produces 2,794 avg. A pretty good load but obviously the case can do a lot more.
Corbon Ammo with a Berger 168gr produced 2,755fps 10 shot average from the 24" bolt rifle. Since then this ammo has been hard to find so
I recreated a copy load with the same bullet and 2.830" Coal. It is much cheaper to reload too.
I was hopping hornady would add the 162gr and Nosler the 150gr and 168gr ABLR to their ammo assortment for Elk.
I am still working on the R17 but I will post what I have along with varget and other tests I have.

What brass did you use for the reloads?

edit: I will also post some alternative loads for the 308 using solids including some flat line I bought to test.
 
I have a Wal Mart Rem 700 in 243. I put it in a Boyd's laminated stock and installed a metal trigger guard. With Winchester power point 100 grain (also from the mart) it groups 1.5 MOA. This has never let me down but has downed about 15 deer with zero drama. Would not hesitate to use it up to 300 yards for this purpose. Is there more things I could do, or possibly a much better round? I'm sure there is. But for the above stated purpose, and at $17 a box, I see no need in fixing what's not broke.
 
Nature Boy said:
The more I read about the .284 win the more intrigued I am
Click to expand...

I know what you mean.
The 284 was a marketing disaster and then people saw the potential of a 6.5 bullet inside this case that is an awesome caliber.
Some people remained loyal and then after some time the ones who necked down the cartridge realized that the others with the original were shooting better.
This situation has been more frequent overseas where more people are shooting Mauser type actions where slightly longer short action is better for this type of shooting.
This also happens in sync with the introduction of new bullets and innovation not just in 6 and 6.5mm but in 7mm as other popular ones. Sometimes the timing of this
is also important.
But what is more important these days is hitting the spot with the marketing and internet campaigns and also follow through with decent ammo and rifles made for that ammo.
This is an area where Winchester and Remington have a very poor track record and the calibers that succeed, did it by their own merits and because the name, circumstances
and or fashions at the time favored them but not because well thought out go to market strategies and marketing.
It is not the first time a nice caliber goes in the dark and a so-so caliber gets a lot of attention. This has happened many times before.
As far as the casing goes I think it could have done better with a simple 2" even oal and a less aggressive shoulder angle and still get amazing performance using common
short actions and bolts with 308w bolt face.
...that is just my opinion anyway...
 
Well i have 3; 22 middlestead with a 26" 1-9" twist barrel... 75gr Berger vld over 43gr imr 7828 @ 3400fps: 243 ackley with 31" 1-8" twist barrel... 115gr dtac over 45gr h4831 @ 3000fps: 6.5 cm 30" 1-8" twist barrel... factory 140gr Winchester match @ 2880
 
458MinMag said:
Hornady Precision Hunter 150ELD-X averages 2685fps (this is one you listed above)
J
Click to expand...

J,
I am assembling all the data in a test log. Any additional info about the brass, rifle, etc.. would be helpful but not critical. We will remind folks to start low as ususal.
I am also running the numbers in similar / average conditions so we can compare different trajectories side by side. If you have corrected BCs also send them.
I have many already adjusted but as you know those change with the twist and I adjust as they change through the speed spectrum.

Do you think we need more information? I think we have everything folks need so they can also compare and run a delta if they want.

On the factory ammo we obviously do not have the load info but we have the speed spreads and we know we can easily reproduce and improve both in accuracy and performance.

**I will also make it a tad larger in two pieces so we can see it better.
upload_2017-9-28_17-41-12.png

I was hopping @Gtscotty would chime in with the 6mm and 6.5 load tests he mentioned on the other thread. I believe he was referring to a 243 with a 110gr SMK.
Otherwise we can find some load info and estimate somehow.
 
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Forty plus years ago when I started hunting and shooting old timers told me 30-06 was the best way to go. At the time I don't think that was bad advice. But today there are better options. I sorta got stuck on 30 caliber and went with 308 when I determined 30-06 was really bigger than I needed. On paper the 7-08 is ever so slightly better. But not enough to sell my 308's or even justify owning both. So even though 7-08 is a great round, it doesn't fill a niche for me.

I'm always going to have a 223. I have 3 AR's and a bolt rifle. There is really a lot to like in 243, but for me it just wasn't enough more than 223.

The more I looked at 6.5 Creedmoor the more I liked it. It fits perfectly in between 223 and 308 and I added one a few months ago. I have no argument with anyone who likes and want to use any magnum round. I've owned several and for a lot of folks they fill a niche. But with todays bullets, rifles and optics I don't feel the least bit under gunned with either the 6.5 or 308 on any North American big game.

The guys who have been shooting 260 and 6.5X55 for a long time are puzzled by the 6.5 Creedmoor craze. All I can say is that you were smarter than the rest of us and figured out how great the 6.5's were before the rest of us. If I had a 260 or 6.5X55 I might not buy a 6.5 Creed. But there are enough advantages to the Creed that it is the best way to go if buying a new 6.5 right now.

Loads: These are primarily hunting loads, but would work for informal target shooting'

308/178 Hornady ELD-X
44.5 gr Varget
2620 fps from my 22" Winchester 70 EW.
Hornady brass, Winchester LR primers.

I'd shoot an elk with that load at 400 and deer at 500 yards. Accuracy is exceptional. I never shot for groups at 100, but it keeps 3 shots under 1.5" at 200 yards every time.


6.5 Creed/143 Hornady ELD-X
45 gr Ramshot Hunter
2720 fps from 22" Ruger Predator
Hornady Brass Winchester LR primers.

I've not shot this load a lot. I was using 41.5 gr H4350 with excellent accuracy. About the same as the 308 load. I gave the Ramshot powder a try and added 50-60 fps with no loss of accuracy. I'm still not at a max load here and when I get a chance will see if 2750 fps with good accuracy is doable.
 
1stmarine said:
J,
I am assembling all the data in a test log. Any additional info about the brass, rifle, etc.. would be helpful but not critical. We will remind folks to start low as ususal.
Click to expand...

Good project!
Here's my load data (with all of the usual warnings):
7mm-08, 120 Nosler Ballistic Tip, 47.5gr CFE223, BR2 primer, 2.807 OAL, Hornady brass, 3032fps avg (I don't record temp, but it was likely 75-80F)
7mm-08, 162 Horn Amax, 45.5gr H414, CCI250 primer, 2.825 OAL, Winchester brass, 2599avg (high around 55F that day)
 
jmr40 said:
Forty plus years ago when I started hunting and shooting old timers told me 30-06 was the best way to go. At the time I don't think that was bad advice. But today there are better options. I sorta got stuck on 30 caliber and went with 308 when I determined 30-06 was really bigger than I needed. On paper the 7-08 is ever so slightly better. But not enough to sell my 308's or even justify owning both. So even though 7-08 is a great round, it doesn't fill a niche for me.

I'm always going to have a 223. I have 3 AR's and a bolt rifle. There is really a lot to like in 243, but for me it just wasn't enough more than 223.

The more I looked at 6.5 Creedmoor the more I liked it. It fits perfectly in between 223 and 308 and I added one a few months ago. I have no argument with anyone who likes and want to use any magnum round. I've owned several and for a lot of folks they fill a niche. But with todays bullets, rifles and optics I don't feel the least bit under gunned with either the 6.5 or 308 on any North American big game.

The guys who have been shooting 260 and 6.5X55 for a long time are puzzled by the 6.5 Creedmoor craze. All I can say is that you were smarter than the rest of us and figured out how great the 6.5's were before the rest of us. If I had a 260 or 6.5X55 I might not buy a 6.5 Creed. But there are enough advantages to the Creed that it is the best way to go if buying a new 6.5 right now.

Loads: These are primarily hunting loads, but would work for informal target shooting'

308/178 Hornady ELD-X
44.5 gr Varget
2620 fps from my 22" Winchester 70 EW.
Hornady brass, Winchester LR primers.

I'd shoot an elk with that load at 400 and deer at 500 yards. Accuracy is exceptional. I never shot for groups at 100, but it keeps 3 shots under 1.5" at 200 yards every time.


6.5 Creed/143 Hornady ELD-X
45 gr Ramshot Hunter
2720 fps from 22" Ruger Predator
Hornady Brass Winchester LR primers.

I've not shot this load a lot. I was using 41.5 gr H4350 with excellent accuracy. About the same as the 308 load. I gave the Ramshot powder a try and added 50-60 fps with no loss of accuracy. I'm still not at a max load here and when I get a chance will see if 2750 fps with good accuracy is doable.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the data! ...Wow that 308 Elk load looks amazing!

IMO, the 30-06 is not going to be the go-to caliber for many modern competitions but no matter where you go in the world you find amazing
ammo and rifles in the trusty 30-06. Did you see the loads form buffalo bore? Those things can take the role of a magnum but
with less powder and will not feel shorthanded in the Alaskan bush on a close encounter.
At the same time it can be also loaded with the latest generation 168-190gr bonded to hunt elk that hit like a sledge hammer.
Once you go below the 7mm it is not possible to get that kind of momentum. Perhaps the trusty 270 but the 7mm(280) and 30 cal are the ticket
in terms of something easy and w/o getting into a magnum.

I like the creedmore but I like the 260 more because that is the one I used to shoot a lot and gave great accuracy and I reload anyway. It is all the same dog with a different collar.
I think the 6mm and 6.5mm are great little calibers if one likes to punch paper or ring steel and then for the small-medium game there are nice bullets too.
 
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Ok, I can't get this .284 out of my mind.

So the project would be to re-barrel my FN SPR and put it in an XLR chassis

I'd send it off to Short Action Customs to do the square up and install

Do I go with

1. the standard .284 win? I read it holds the 10 shot record at 1,000
2. the .284 Shehane (seems to be all the rage over at accurateshooter.com, requires fire forming brass)
3. the 6.5-284 to scratch the six point five itch

Or just get over trying to be an oddball and get the "creed" and be like every other swinging Johnson out there these days
 
Nature Boy said:
Ok, I can't get this .284 out of my mind.

So the project would be to re-barrel my FN SPR and put it in an XLR chassis

I'd send it off to Short Action Customs to do the square up and install

Do I go with

1. the standard .284 win? I read it holds the 10 shot record at 1,000
2. the .284 Shehane (seems to be all the rage over at accurateshooter.com, requires fire forming brass)
3. the 6.5-284 to scratch the six point five itch

Or just get over trying to be an oddball and get the "creed" and be like every other swinging Johnson out there these days
Click to expand...

That will be a sweet rifle! I agree with you on being different. The "straight" 284Win would be a great choice. It is ironic that you will likely need to buy 6.5-284 brass and expand it back to 7mm.

I am contemplating getting a second barrel for a Savage rifle that I currently have set up for deer hunting. It is a short action with a magnum bolt face, so easiest switch would be to a WSM or SAUM. Trying to decide 6.5mm vs 7mm too. Or maybe go old school and do a 6.5 Rem Mag (my Dad's buddy had a Remington model 660 that I always wanted). So many choices!!!
 
Nature Boy said:
Ok, I can't get this .284 out of my mind.
Click to expand...
I know. The 284 is a very efficient and effective case. It is to the 7mm what the BR norma is to the 6 but more.
I think it is better to start with the bullet selection itself and then work it out from there.
What do you want to do with it? More than one role or just one?
The 284 in 7mm or 6.5mm works great in the short action and average magazines but if you really want to
maximize performance you need to work around the Short action and either find a magazine system that
will allow you to maximize performance with the longest bullets or consider a long action.
This is going to be the case with may other short actions including the mighty SAUM.
The classic "Mid-length" Mauser actions are perfect for this type of use but otherwise there might be
other solutions. That is why I would start by looking at the bullets and objectives you have in mind.
As far as the case even limited by the largest magazine one can buy it is a perfect balance between
size, caliber and power for many applications and w/o getting into the concussion, expense and heat
of the magnums. If you look closely it will match and even exceed the 280 performance and
Norma brass as far as I can tell is very consistent and super strong brass. $1/each case of course.
If you like power and momentum on the targets this is a good choice but not the only one.
But study the situation of the SA / magazine after choosing bullets.
Again, it depends on what you want to do and how much efficiency you want to squeeze out of it.
I don't think there is a need for a wildcat but maybe there is one.
Keep in mind how easy is the 7mm-08 and how well it does with the right rifle and some reloading.
 
My rifle has the FN proprietary mag which allows me to load out to a COAL of ~2.890.

PT&G makes a bottom metal for it that accepts AI mags giving a bit more length. Your chart seems to bear that out

It's an expensive upgrade though to gain only .010 in length

Here's a question. I assume .308 mags would work with .284?
 
A "magic load" I've found for 7-08 is 42.0grn Varget under a 140grn NAB. Every 7-08 I've ever done load work for has liked this load. I know Varget isn't very trendy these days, nor is the Accubond, but they still shoot tiny groups at long ranges, and they'll kill better across a broader span of ranges than many other bullets like the ELD-X (or M's especially), TTSX's, etc.

Nature Boy said:
Do I go with

1. the standard .284 win? I read it holds the 10 shot record at 1,000
2. the .284 Shehane (seems to be all the rage over at accurateshooter.com, requires fire forming brass)
3. the 6.5-284 to scratch the six point five itch
Click to expand...

I asked myself the same question over the last 12yrs. I started with a 284win, rebarreled it to a 6.5-284 for a few barrels, then eventually I swapped that rifle off for a 284 Shehane. I still have a Savage precision action with a 6.5-284 on it, but I haven't shot it in years.

Shehane doesn't really require fireforming - part of the intended design. It gets fireformed, but a guy doesn't have to do any of the traditional fireforming methods - load up your same load and bang. All we're doing is blowing out the body. No cream of wheat, no hydroform die, no false shoulder, no reduced load/jammed bullet... Load and be merry.

None of the 3 are "wrong answers," but the barrel life is a lot better in the 7mm's, and the velocity and case performance are a lot better in the Shehane.
 
"...post factory loads..." None of the manufacturers publish the powder or the load for any cartridge. They load to produce a specific velocity in a specific pressure range. They may or may not use the same powder from lot to lot. And a different powder lot may require a slightly different load to produce that velocity and pressure.
Plus the action length has nothing to do with anything.
"...the 30-06 is going to be the go-to caliber for many modern competitions..." Not since the mid 50's. The .308 knocked the '06 out of contention as a match calibre. Not enough difference between 'em for hunting either.
Magazine COAL is irrelevant. It's actually a hindrance if one is fiddling with the off-the-lands distance.
 
1stmarine said:
What is your purpose for it?
Click to expand...

Banging an 18" steel gong at 1,000 yards
Making tiny groups in paper out to 600 yards
Shooting a whitetail once or twice a year
The enjoyment of developing loads to maximize its performance

In other words, everything I do with my .308, hahahah!
 
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