Camping while hunting, Are Tents Still Safe?

[Alaska444]

I live less than 3 hours south of Smoky Mt National Park. It has the highest concentration on black bear in the East, probably the country. It also has the most visitors of any National Park in the country. Nothing else comes close. The bears there are not hunted and rarely cause problems. There has been 1 death, about 10 years ago, in the history of the park.

They have few bear problems there because proper safety is stressed by park rangers. They agressevely go after folks who violate rules pertaining to bear safety.

I also hike and camp there regularly as well as in areas with high concentrations of bear in East TN, West NC and N GA. I also hunt extensively in the N GA mountains where we have a 3 month long bear season. There are fewer bear, and they are hunted, yet we have more bear/human problems here.

I know of one problem bear several years ago here in Ga that never hurt anyone, but would steal packs right off hikers backs. Did this seveal times and destroyed several backpackers tents when no one was in them. The problem was traced to backpackers leaving food out for it to get better photos. Once it learned how to get easy food it went after it.

This was on National Forest, not a park. The bear was caught, tagged, released and that section of forest closed until hunting season. The bear was killed by a hunter. Had it survived hunting season the plan was for DNR Rangers to kill it after hunting season.

I still believe that almost all bear attacks are ultimately caused by poor decisions made by humans. Almost all attacks like the one in the OP are done by very young, very small bears that have recently been chased off by their mothers. They are having a hard time surviving and are still learning not to mess with humans.

Most of these small bears are easily discouraged if you understand what they are doing and why. Even without a weapon most adult males could fight one off enough to stop an attack. The bear is stronger than you, but he doesn't know that. Usually throwing rocks and acting agressively will encourage one of these young cubs to look for food elsewhere.

I'd just as soon camp in a tent. In fact most of the places where I camp there is no other option. I cannot carry a camper on a trail. If a bear really wants you they have no trouble breaking into a hard sided camper or even you car. I'll post this link again if you doubt me.

http://www.google.com/search?q=bear..._pw.r_qf.&fp=89785d729b6a246c&biw=837&bih=389

Not sure the Great Smokey Mt Park is as safe a bear zone as you are stating. Seems that black bears are causing quite a bit of trouble there over in the last few years. Here are a few examples:

Great Smoky Camping Areas Closed On Account Of Bears

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/27/great-smoky-camping-areas_0_n_1630057.html

Bear mauls 8-year-old boy in Smoky Mountains
Rangers later kill animal matching description of one in attack

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/2615547...s--year-old-boy-smoky-mountains/#.UGYUHRxQlqw

Woman mauled by black bear in Great Smoky Mountains

http://www.aldha.org/bearmaul.htm

Black Bear Attacks Great Smoky Mountains National Park Visitor on Popular Hiking Trail as Horrified Crowd Watches Helpless in Disbelief.

http://yoursmokies.blogspot.com/2010/05/black-bear-attacks-great-smoky.html

Bear breaks in car at clingmans dome, smoky mountains, TN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBnGe9HDGBI

Once again, no problem understanding what a bear can do to a car or an RV, but it does offer much more protection than hanging out in a flimsy tent especially those that have an attached floor making it a trap if the bear collapses it and drags it off as is part of their behavior patterns.

Once again, lots of folks up here in Idaho that no longer venture out in tents any longer with the observation that the bears are more aggressive than in the past. If you are going to camp in a tent, take the proper precautions.

 

[X-Rap]

I don't see much difference between a tent and one of the common mummy bags except that in a tent you are caught in both but do have a little more fabric for the bear to sort out and a tent with a floor will at least keep your gun, knife, and flashlight traveling with you until the bear decides to shread it. Speaking of the gun, I am still interested in how posters would take to shooting at some attacking bear at 2am when they don't know where everyone is?

 

[H&Hhunter]

My brother was attacked by a black bear while sleeping outside in a mummy bag with a .41 mag under his head. He felt pressure on his chest and remembered smelling a rancid smell. He realized that a bear was on top of him he woke up and got swatted in the face. He never had the slightest chance of drawing his handgun everything happened to fast.

He got off lucky with just about 30 to 40 stitches in his fore head and nose. So would he have been worse off in a tent? This seems like an absolutely ludicrous point of view to me.

What in the H.E. double hockey sticks, is guy supposed to use for shelter in the rain and snow?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

This reminded me of something I read many years ago...in some sort of backpacking book or magazine....Dad and I used to do a lot of backpacking on the AT and some backcountry camping (off the beaten paths, well up in the hills)...I miss those days, and more than once I've stumbled out of the tent late at night to take a leak and spooked a nearby bear (Smoky Mountain park, Mt. Rogers area in VA, western NC, etc ...plenty of bears)

Anyway.....what I read was a story about a guy who lost his flashlight on the trail and managed to stumble into another party's tent after dark...the guy in the tent thought it was a bear, panicked, ran...screaming "BEAR!!!" for most of a 1/4 of a mile....LMAO.


Are tents safe?

I'd say they are just as safe as your house...I don't know of any "normal" door frame that would stand up against a determined bear (large black or any brown) no matter how good the lock was.

If it wanted in...it would get in...and it probably wouldn't take more than a second.

I have no experience with griz...but grew up in prime black bear country.


To answer your poll question...I didn't vote....bears are moody critters, how they behave depends entirely on their frame of mind at the time of the encounter.

I've seen big bears run like a sissy...little ones stand their ground...and vice versa.

On the topic of Smoky Mountain bear attacks...there is getting to be LOTS of bears in the area, and not just in the park. I live about 60 miles from the park...and there has always been a few bears scattered around in the immediate area of home but in the last 10 years that number has skyrocketed. I live in the vicinity of Surgoinsville and used to have coon feeders on my place....do you have any idea what its like to try to keep a coon feeder filled with dog food in 1 piece with bears involved?

I'll tell you...its impossible!

The point though is this...with more bears, there is more competition...for food and room to live...I like having the bears around, they don't scare me but it is about time they opened a hunting season in my area.

 

[splattergun]

Actually, a couple of corrections.

The boy killed in Utah was almost exactly in the same place as another group of campers harassed by the same bear hours before. That was the basis of the lawsuit against the park service.

Sadly, your Utah case is exactly my point on the safety of camping in tents. It is not enough in many cases. The Utah case is one more in that series showing the dangers that people need to account in their camping plans.

Secondly,the bear in the article in my OP NEVER left the camp. It was only a temporary end to the mauling. campgroun

The fact that the bear had been in the same place earlier does not change the fact that it was a dirty camp site, but reinforces it. THat bear was there earlier because of the food litter. I have personally camped at that spot, but only once, because of the mess left there by others. It is not a maintained campsite and is always littered. There was also a soda can and candy wrappers in the boy's tent. The poor kid was bait.

The bear in your OP did not leave the camp, but I have to wonder if it moved far enough away for the camper to retreat to his vehicle, which is the impression your OP gave me. Use the spray only to make retreat possible.

Camping in a tent in country where dangerous animals frequent is and always has been only as safe as the fabric and your camping habits. A tent is no more safe nor no more dangerous than it has ever been.

I am not convinced that bear nature is changing, becoming more agressive. I do believe that many more humans are spending much more time in bear country. Combine that with increasing bear numbers and you have a formula which appears to make bears more aggressive. Some people seem to feel that blaming increasingly aggressive bears is preferable to keeping a clean camp.

 

[X-Rap]

Animals will become conditioned to be wary of people if they are treated with aggression. Hunting by its nature is aggresive. Birds, deer, coyotes, even fish will eventually fear in some way human presence if they feel pressured. A good example is the fox, I know of a number of them that when in a protected area have become nearly tame but when a fox encounters humans in the wild and have been hunted they rarely hang around. I can think of other examples of deer and elk locally in which their location and time of year seems to dictate their reaction to humans.
I don't think bears or other large predators are any different.

 

[Alaska444]

My brother was attacked by a black bear while sleeping outside in a mummy bag with a .41 mag under his head. He felt pressure on his chest and remembered smelling a rancid smell. He realized that a bear was on top of him he woke up and got swatted in the face. He never had the slightest chance of drawing his handgun everything happened to fast.

He got off lucky with just about 30 to 40 stitches in his fore head and nose. So would he have been worse off in a tent? This seems like an absolutely ludicrous point of view to me.

What in the H.E. double hockey sticks, is guy supposed to use for shelter in the rain and snow?

Dear H&HHunter,

Sure, use a tent but you should consider adding a perimeter and electric fence if you do not have the option of a hard walled RV. Settle down my friend, more options than just a bare tent with no other considerations. I have mentioned that already in several prior posts.

 

[Alaska444]

This reminded me of something I read many years ago...in some sort of backpacking book or magazine....Dad and I used to do a lot of backpacking on the AT and some backcountry camping (off the beaten paths, well up in the hills)...I miss those days, and more than once I've stumbled out of the tent late at night to take a leak and spooked a nearby bear (Smoky Mountain park, Mt. Rogers area in VA, western NC, etc ...plenty of bears)

Anyway.....what I read was a story about a guy who lost his flashlight on the trail and managed to stumble into another party's tent after dark...the guy in the tent thought it was a bear, panicked, ran...screaming "BEAR!!!" for most of a 1/4 of a mile....LMAO.


Are tents safe?

I'd say they are just as safe as your house...I don't know of any "normal" door frame that would stand up against a determined bear (large black or any brown) no matter how good the lock was.

If it wanted in...it would get in...and it probably wouldn't take more than a second.

I have no experience with griz...but grew up in prime black bear country.


To answer your poll question...I didn't vote....bears are moody critters, how they behave depends entirely on their frame of mind at the time of the encounter.

I've seen big bears run like a sissy...little ones stand their ground...and vice versa.

On the topic of Smoky Mountain bear attacks...there is getting to be LOTS of bears in the area, and not just in the park. I live about 60 miles from the park...and there has always been a few bears scattered around in the immediate area of home but in the last 10 years that number has skyrocketed. I live in the vicinity of Surgoinsville and used to have coon feeders on my place....do you have any idea what its like to try to keep a coon feeder filled with dog food in 1 piece with bears involved?

I'll tell you...its impossible!

The point though is this...with more bears, there is more competition...for food and room to live...I like having the bears around, they don't scare me but it is about time they opened a hunting season in my area.

+1, open more tags in hunting season and decrease the bear population to where they don't need to encroach urban areas to eat. Bears that are hunted are more likely to run when they encounter man as well.

 

[X-Rap]

I can't immagine packing batteries, wire, solar charger along on a back country trip. Take a dog and forget it, they can carry their own food plus it gives you something to talk to, can't see much companionship in a fencer.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I can't immagine packing batteries, wire, solar charger along on a back country trip. Take a dog and forget it, they can carry their own food plus it gives you something to talk to, can't see much companionship in a fencer.

Dogs have benefits and detractions. They also tend to antagonize the bears.

 

[bejay]

I can't immagine packing batteries, wire, solar charger along on a back country trip

seems like alot of trouble that may not even be effective would probably go with a dog also.

 

[Alaska444]

I can't immagine packing batteries, wire, solar charger along on a back country trip. Take a dog and forget it, they can carry their own food plus it gives you something to talk to, can't see much companionship in a fencer.

Depends on what kind of dogs you are talking about. I can't recall how many bear attack stories I have read across these years where the dog met Mr. bear first and ran back to their master bringing the bear right on their heals. Unfortunately, dogs are not always a help and they can attract bears as well.

They are a bit of a mixed message. Not too many dogs like Old Yeller that will save their master from the wild beasts.

Now, a camp with several people and several dogs makes tent camping safer. However, how much weight is packing in all that dog food going to be compared to a few batteries and wire systems? Probably more work bringing the dog I would think.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I do not mean to ruffle any feathers by saying this, and its not exactly pertaining to bears in your back yard (those are different)...but this is about camping...and here is how I feel about it.

If one cannot reasonably accept the risk of no longer being at the top of the food chain...don't go camping in bear country.

They (the bears) have as much right to be there as we do...I'm an old bear hunter, I love hunting them...I'm not saying "save the bears", just that there is no need to get overly paranoid about it and kill them all...keep your food suspended on a rope away from camp (we always hung our backpacks), after meals....wash your hands to keep the scent of food off YOU, stuff like that...

Having a backup plan (firearm) is a good idea...just in case you bump into the wrong bear...but in all my years running all over the best black bear country there is...I only had to shoot 1 bear that I wasn't hunting, and she was just doing what mothers do...protecting her cubs...I don't hold that against her, but I did what I had to do.

 

[Alaska444]

Animals will become conditioned to be wary of people if they are treated with aggression. Hunting by its nature is aggresive. Birds, deer, coyotes, even fish will eventually fear in some way human presence if they feel pressured. A good example is the fox, I know of a number of them that when in a protected area have become nearly tame but when a fox encounters humans in the wild and have been hunted they rarely hang around. I can think of other examples of deer and elk locally in which their location and time of year seems to dictate their reaction to humans.
I don't think bears or other large predators are any different.

Interesting follow up articles point to a human habituated bear that is the probably reason prompting the attack.

An investigation by FWP and U.S. Forest Service officials tied the 185-pound male bear to the mauling, and determined that the animal had displayed predatory behavior, probably as a result of being conditioned to human food.

FWP Investigator Brian Sommers reports that a number of food items found in the bear’s stomach were consistent with food at the camp, which the bear consumed after the initial attack. These included pieces of ziplock bags and dried pasta, he said.

Sommers also said that when agents went into the camp to dispatch the bear Friday afternoon, the bear displayed behavior consistent with conditioning and habituation to human food. The bear was killed approximately 70 yards from the scene of the attack, and was in the process of moving back toward the tent where the attack occurred.

http://www.ravallirepublic.com/news...cle_c913cb52-7a5d-5b0d-adaf-4c7bf9c49a0c.html

 

[xnmw]

Lastly, after the Gallatin bear attacks where one man was killed, tents were banned in three campgrounds. If tents are so safe, why were they banned?

I think I've heard a variation of this kind of thinking before...

Clean camp, spray + enough gun. I would rather tent camp in bear country than any of the homeless "tent cities" around here. It's not zero risk, but it's low enough, and you can prepare yourself. Maybe we should start a best gun for bears while tent camping thread?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Lastly, after the Gallatin bear attacks where one man was killed, tents were banned in three campgrounds. If tents are so safe, why were they banned?

You have it turned around. The tents didn't harm anybody. They were not banned for being unsafe or being the cause of any problems. On top of that, tents weren't banned, but tent camping was. Notice that camping without a hardsided shelter, open camping, was banned as well. It wasn't the tents that were banned.

 

[Alaska444]

I think I've heard a variation of this kind of thinking before...

Clean camp, spray + enough gun. I would rather tent camp in bear country than any of the homeless "tent cities" around here. It's not zero risk, but it's low enough, and you can prepare yourself. Maybe we should start a best gun for bears while tent camping thread?

+1, No problem my friend. That would be a good thread since it appears that the majority of folks that get into trouble with bears come unprepared with either bear spray or with a gun.

This attack in the OP was an unprovoked predatory black bear attack from an habituated bear. My point in fact that bear behavior has changed because of our change in behavior towards bears. In the old days, a bear near camp was driven away or killed. I just don't recall any habituated bear attacks up in Alaska during the 1960's. Other reasons, yes of course, but the bambi generation's attitude towards bears is a direct cause of many of the recent bear attacks from habituated bears. This is most evident in many of the bear attacks around Anchorage Alaska where they forbid bear hunting in the Chugach National Forest for nearly 30 years.

Once again, is it safe to camp in tents any longer? With the burgeoning bear population and human habituation of bear that is a direct cause of many of the recent attacks such as the one in the OP. I believe the days of counting on bears running away from a human camp ground cannot be relied upon on any longer in too many cases. For bears not habituated, hopefully they are still more afraid of us than we are of them. If we can't expect them to run from us, then yes, we need to add other layers of bear protection when camping in a tent.

 

[Alaska444]

You have it turned around. The tents didn't harm anybody. They were not banned for being unsafe or being the cause of any problems. On top of that, tents weren't banned, but tent camping was. Notice that camping without a hardsided shelter, open camping, was banned as well. It wasn't the tents that were banned.

Dear DNS, are you a politician? If you not, you should be, that was the biggest double speak mumbo jumbo I have heard aside from the so called presidential race.

 

[Alaska444]

Interesting story on habituated black bears in MT that tells the story of how people today are treating these creatures with a true lack of the respect of their wild nature. Man has radically changed their attitudes towards these animals and these sort of events are now quite common.

Seven black bears were euthanized near Heron MT. One male bear weighed nearly 500 pounds. What happens when those that feed these creatures no longer feed them?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...d-in-montana-after-becoming-used-to-being-fed

The interesting aspect for me personally is that is less than five miles from where we go camping with our church at Bull River Camp ground. Habituated black bears are a danger and that is believed to be the cause of the attack in the OP. Our attitudes towards these animals directly influences their population explosion and encroachment into urban areas.

 

[WYcoyote]

I can't immagine packing batteries, wire, solar charger along on a back country trip. Take a dog and forget it, they can carry their own food plus it gives you something to talk to, can't see much companionship in a fencer.

I just returned from a sheep hunt in Wyoming smack in grizzly country (in fact where a fairly recent fatality occurred) and used an electric fence around my tent. The maker is UDAP, it establishes a 27' x 27' square perimeter and weighs 3.7 pounds.
To be honest we did cook and kept food in the tent. One night we came to camp late with sheep meat and a head with cape and kept it inside the fence.
This is not recommended I'm sure but we rolled the dice and got away with it.

 

[lefteyedom]

If you are worried there is the tried and true sleep aid....

CLAYMORE

 

[Zoogster]

Tent camping outdoors is pretty low risk.
It is outside of the routine comfort zone of people that rarely camp, so when there is the occasional issue it reinforces it being dangerous to those that want to find proof it is dangerous.
However by that definition houses are dangerous, there is home invasions by dangerous predators.


The most likely thing to be dangerous is an animal conditioned by people to expect food from campers. A tent gives a little extra time to those armed with a firearm to react.
Someone that actually uses the tent to sleep quietly has a barrier between them and should hear or awaken with some seconds to react.
Now if they are a really sound sleeper, wearing an ipod...


Originally Posted by X-Rap

Animals will become conditioned to be wary of people if they are treated with aggression. Hunting by its nature is aggresive.

That can be true. However a successfully killed animal doesn't pass that information on and ceases to be trained to avoid people.
So especially with predators that are predominantly alone it does not really teach them much.


On the other hand there has been people that teach bears to fear people. I recall a business that was retreaining bears to avoid people by responding to black bears around populated areas and pelting them with hard items from paintball type guns, using fireworks, sprays, and things that explode around the animal (while taking safety precautions or from a vehicle to avoid retaliation.)
Causing pain and discomfort and fear.
This may sound cruel, but actually saves the animal because instead of needing to be killed later when it poses a problem it learns to avoid people and run at the sight or smell of them.

While simply taking an animal and relocating it often fails to work because it does not resolve the underlying problem of wanting to go to easy sources of food around people that it does not fear.

 

[rdhood]

Like everyone has said....

North GA, NC, TN all have black bear. Food control is the key. Don't sleep in the same clothes that you ate in, no food in the tent, preferably cook well away from tent/sleeping area, hang food, etc.

Bears are hungry. Don't give them any more reason to enter your campsite/tent.

 

[X-Rap]

My point about hunting is largely based on results of hound pursuit and how I believe bears or cats respond over time but I speculate that the smell of death of familiar species mixed with human odor in the woods resonates with all wild animals to some degree.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

My point about hunting is largely based on results of hound pursuit and how I believe bears or cats respond over time but I speculate that the smell of death of familiar species mixed with human odor in the woods resonates with all wild animals to some degree.

Humans aren't that special. When a given animal is killed, if the carcass or parts are left behind, even blood, it will attract the attention of many animals that will pass through. So a bear smells human scent around the skinned out carcass of another bear, along with deer, squirrel, another bear, fox, coyote, and wolf. Never mind all the birds and bugs that left their odor behind. Just how are the bears supposed to discern that the death was caused by almighty humans?