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Can a 18 year old buy a shotgun with a pistol grip stock?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by john fisher, Jun 16, 2019.

  1. john fisher

    john fisher Member

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    I was wondering if it's legal for an 18 year old to buy a shotgun with a pistol grip stock. I already know that in Texas you can't buy a pistol grip shotgun until you're 21 but what about a shotgun with a pistol grip stock?
     
  2. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Need to clarify whether you're talking about pistol grip ONLY. And I don't know either way.

    EDITED AND FIXED
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  3. newfalguy101

    newfalguy101 Member

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    Full stock with pistol grip, YES

    Pistol grip only, NO

    As per fed law, 18 to 21 CAN buy longguns ONLY.

    A PGO does not meet the definition of a longgun
     
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  4. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    I believe the PGO shotguns are generally 21+ from a FFL.
     
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  5. john fisher

    john fisher Member

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    Also does that include top folding stocks or no? I want to get this shotgun but they told me I can't buy it because it has a pistol grip but not a pistol grip shotgun. It is a top folding stock but doesn't that qualify as a full stock with pistol grip?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  6. newfalguy101

    newfalguy101 Member

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    Folding stock is still a stock, and as such, as per fed law, would be legal for under 21 to buy.

    State laws can and do vary....sometimes dramatically ( but NEVER less strict than Fed law)
     
  7. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    Agree that it could easily be a state law. Need to say where you are so the more informed can give a better answer.

    At the least just ask people who say something that sounds wrong is illegal for their specifics, so you can look it up later on.
     
  8. newfalguy101

    newfalguy101 Member

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    Another consideration:

    With all of the political bs out there, and the notion that anybody can sue anybody for any reason has some dealers tending to err on the side of " I dont wanna get sued, if something goes sideways "

    Could be store policy disguised as legal concern.

    Your opening post suggets you live in TX, which would suggest to me its either a store policy or a misunderstanding of the law
     
  9. labnoti

    labnoti Member

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    To clarify, I believe the Federal law pertains to whether an FFL license holder can sell to them, and the law does not prohibit an 18-year-old from buying or possessing as the law applies to dealers, not to buyers. Under Federal law, wouldn't an FFL be able to sell to an 18-year-old without the pistol-grip stock and also sell an aftermarket pistol-grip stock? The buyer could then install the grip (provided the modification doesn't make it an NFA item without the subsequent requirements being met). Because State laws vary, it's hard to comment on those, but are there any states that prohibit an 18-year-old but not a 21-year-old from possessing a shotgun with a pistol grip stock or possessing any firearm that isn't also prohibited for 21 and older? I'm not aware of it. It's one thing to regulate FFL's and dealers since they have applied for a "privilege" license. It's another thing to infringe on the rights of an adult citizen.
     
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  10. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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    You cannot in Florida.
     
  11. john fisher

    john fisher Member

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    So this is the type of stock it has but the shotgun is a Mossberg 500
     

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    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  12. newfalguy101

    newfalguy101 Member

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    As I posted above, a folding stock is a stock, and as such, as per federal law, can be sold over the counter to an 18 year old ( assuming state law allows it )
     
  13. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    As was mentioned, that varies by state. The federal law applies to FFL's, not private sales. Here in PA, you can possess a handgun at 18, and buy a one in a private sale at 18. You just cant buy one from a FFL at 18.
     
  14. john fisher

    john fisher Member

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    I live in Texas
     
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  15. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    Federally...

    If you find a private party willing to sell you a Pistol-grip-only shotgun, you can legally buy it. You cannot buy it from a Federally licensed dealer because it's not a long gun.

    You can legally buy a long gun (IE a shotgun with a stock and a barrel longer than 18") from anyone willing to sell to you. Dealer or private party. Doesnt matter what grip it has on it.

    As for Texas, the only thing that says anything about shotguns in Texas's weapons code is where it defines a short barreled firearm... hunting regulations excluded.

    https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/DocViewer.aspx?DocKey=PE/PE.46&Phrases=Shotgun&HighlightType=1&ExactPhrase=False&QueryText=Shotgun

    And here are the results for "shotgun" in the entirety of Texas code.

    https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/SearchResults.aspx?CP=1&Code=ZZ&Phrase=Shotgun
     
  16. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    If a shotgun has only a pistol grip, a barrel length of 18" or greater AND an overall length of 26" or greater, it is a longarm and legal for an 18 year old to purchase from an FFL, unless prohibited by state or local law.
     
  17. Theohazard

    Theohazard Member

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    That’s incorrect. If a new shotgun only comes with a pistol grip and no stock then it’s not a shotgun, it doesn’t matter how long the barrel or the OAL is. The firearm you’re describing is not a “long gun”, it’s an “other” firearm, and can only be sold by dealers to people 21 and up.
     
  18. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Since a pistol grip stock is not classified as AOW, I don't see why you would not be able to purchase one. Another option is to buy the shotgun you want and replace the stock yourself with pistol grip stock.
     
  19. Theohazard

    Theohazard Member

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    If someone told you that it’s illegal for an 18-year-old to buy that, they’re wrong. Under federal law, it doesn’t make any legal difference whether a shotgun’s stock has a pistol grip or not; the stock is the important part. A shotgun with a barrel length of at least 18”, an overall length of at least 26”, and a stock (pistol grip, no pistol grip, folding, telescoping, fixed; none of that matters) is a shotgun and is legal under federal law for a dealer to sell to persons 18 and over. I’m no expert on Texas law, but I’m pretty sure they don’t have any laws that would contradict that.

    Whoever told you that is confusing the rules about pistol-grip-only (PGO) shotguns that come from the factory with no stock at all, just a pistol grip. Those aren’t legally shotguns under federal law since part of the definition of a shotgun requires a stock, they’re “other” firearms that fall outside of the “long gun” category and therefore require the buyer to be 21.

    EDIT: I was assuming that the OP was referring to buying this shotgun from a dealer, in which case the age rules I described would apply; I was specifically referring to federal law as it pertains to buying from a dealer. But I just realized he never actually mentioned where he tried to buy this shotgun, so my assumption might have been incorrect. Private sales age limits vary from state to state and are often different than the federal age limits when buying from dealers, and I don’t know what Texas’ private sale age limits are.

    @john fisher: are you referring to buying this shotgun privately or from a dealer?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  20. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    Show me the regulation. For many years, shotguns like the Mossberg Persuader have been sold with pistol grips only (no shoulder stock) equipped with barrels at least 18" long (Persuaders were sold with 20" barrels) and an overall length of at least 26", as longarms. Not "Other". Purchaser did not need to be 21.
     
  21. Theohazard

    Theohazard Member

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    Here:

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...n-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-shotgun

    That’s not simply a regulation, that’s federal law set back in 1968. Under the GCA, a shotgun that comes from the factory with just a pistol grip and with no stock can’t legally be a shotgun since it has never had a stock attached.

    If a dealer sells a PGO shotgun to someone under 21 as a shotgun, that simply means the dealer is ignorant. I’m guessing that before the internet made information easily accessible, lots of dealers mistakenly sold PGO shotguns as long guns. That doesn’t mean that’s the correct way to do it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  22. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    There is nothing in that regulation that states a shotgun must have a buttstock.

    Ya know, people were capable of having a clear understanding of the laws before Al Gore invented the internet.
     
  23. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    "The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger."

    I highlighted it for you.

    Being capable does not guarantee success. A horse is capable of drinking water, doesnt mean he will... even if you lead him there.
     
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  24. Theohazard

    Theohazard Member

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    Again, it’s not just a regulation, it was codified in federal law way back in 1968. Notice the part of the law in bold:

    “The term Shotgun means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.”

    The term “intended to be fired from the shoulder” has been universally interpreted to mean that it has a stock, and that’s an interpretation that isn’t controversial at all. And just in case you need more, here’s an ATF letter explaining what I already explained:

    http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf

    And here’s an exerpt from an ATF FFL newsletter:

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/n...s-licensees-newsletter-november-2009/download

    I’ll copy the relevant part:

    “Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.”

    EDIT: It looks like @pdsmith505 beat me to it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  25. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    Stating that a shotgun is designed to be fired from the shoulder may imply a buttstock, but it does not definitively state a buttstock must be used.

    The letter to Mr Savage talks about an AOW being created if a shotgun either has a barrel OR an overall length less than the legal minimum. It does not address a shotgun meeting both legal requirements.

    The ATF newsletter however, does clarify the regulation as requiring a pistol grip only shotgun to be transferred as firearm and the purchaser be at least 21.

    I stand corrected.
     
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