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Can a polymer striker-fired pistol shoot 1" groups at 25yds?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Trey Veston, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    Yes they can, and I own one. But I was called out as being a liar for claiming such...

    I test all of my handguns out to 25yds in search of the tightest groups possible with various loads. I expect any pistol I will rely on for defense of my life to be capable of around 2" at 25yds, 5-shots, with a rest.

    That translates usually into a 6" group off-hand in timed fire.

    Every single one of my defensive pistols has been able to achieve that goal, except a couple exceptions; a Glock 19 Gen 4 and a Taurus G2c. I still have the Taurus since it's really not worth selling or trading...

    I recently purchased a S&W M&P40c to be my new carry gun. I had previously owned one back in 2007 and foolishly sold it. It met my criteria. The new one did not. It did a best of 4" at 25yds with my match reloads. With my Hornady Critical Defense 165gr carry ammo, it did 9"...

    So I tried some 180gr loads using Hornady XTPs and Ramshot Silhouette powder. I got a group to hit the magical 2".

    I posted the results on another gun forum, and was told that 2" groups at 25yds from a striker-fired compact polymer pistol was nearly impossible and that I must have fudged things.

    I then posted pictures of a 1" group using a Glock 29 and more sub-2" groups using an XDS 40.

    Then I was told that anyone can get a good group once in a while and my results are not believable unless I post multiple tiny groups on a single target. Basically accused of being a liar.

    Really?

    I'm above average for a pistol shooter, though I still have not attained the magical 500 score in GSSF. I have hit 497 and am normally in the 490s at my monthly match. There are a lot of much better shooters than me, so I'm sure others have ran across a polymer striker-fired defense pistol that shoots very well and is capable of 1" or so groups at 25yds.

    The offending image...

    OAMChN_1CAm_dlnYGeI3fPBIsYxX9GKgD7RV7PzNjckpX92IB.jpg

    I'll admit the G29 is a freak, as it is actually more accurate than my GSSF match pistol...

    tN5kghPnljkq4YpMbWUzoDgt35ZXZ0m190Roy_TSLvkpX92IB.jpg
     
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  2. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    Congrats on the small groups. As you've shown, some guns like some ammo better than others. That's why we test stuff.

    It is true that some 5-shot groups will be exceptional compared to other 5-shot groups from the same gun with the same ammo. That's just reality.

    Picking the best 5-shot group of many is fine, but one must understand that it's a small sample of the gun's/ammo's accuracy potential. It's not the whole story. And probability-wise, small groups happen even with not so great ammo and not so accurate guns.

    Don't misinterpret this as a criticism. It's just a fact.
     
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  3. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    It's not impossible, but it's not common either. Sub 2" groups at 25 yards from any off-the-shelf autopistol are something to brag about, both in terms of the gun and the shooter. I've managed a few over the years with autopistols. None from a striker-fired pistol that I can recall.
    That's a pretty high standard.

    Are you talking about being able to achieve at least one group "around 2 inches at 25yds" or about the average group size being about 2"?

    I would not say that your results are unbelievable, but they are not common.
    I managed it once some years ago before the local range that was holding the indoor league matches burned down.

    I have some striker-fired pistols that I would say "shoot very well" but I can't give you any useful data on how well they shoot from a rest. I don't spend much time shooting pistols from the bench because that's not how I use them and because I don't like burning ammo and time doing something at the range that doesn't provide any training benefit at all. I did get curious and shoot a Glock from a rest awhile back and managed one 5 shot group at 25 yards that was 2". But the average recorded group size for that bench-shooting session was over 3".

    The Glocks I have tend to give average groups in the 3" range (say 3" to 3.5") at 25 yards with typical practice ammo and shooting offhand. Maybe a bit tighter with premium stuff. I get the occasional group under 3", but I wouldn't like to have to shoot one on demand.
     
  4. bds

    bds Member

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    Tell them they need to wake up and smell the coffee.

    Here's a listing of 25 yard groups (many under 2") by American Rifleman with various factory pistols including striker fired - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10940688

    We recently had discussion on accuracy testing on Handloading & Reloading category - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/best-group.842106/page-2#post-10938165

    These groups were shot with Glock 22 using 40-9 conversion barrel.

    [​IMG]
    We have good range days and bad range days.

    After these shot groups were posted using factory Glock 22 barrel (I was testing 1.150" vs longer 1.155" OAL), there were many in disbelief (Guy shooting in the next lane said if he didn't see them with his own eyes, he wouldn't believe them either) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9645513

    [​IMG]

    So I had fellow THR member Dudedog meet me at the range for in-person verification and got this group. Hands were rested on top of a small ice chest and fired fairly quick shots. I had slight stage fright with Dudedog watching but relaxed and shot as usual. Some days, we have good range days. :) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9646469

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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  5. HB

    HB Member

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    I hate shooting them but glocks are very accurate pistols. I shot a walther ppq match that was very very accurate. My canik might be my most accurate centerfire handgun aside from my blackhawk.

    What kind of sights do you like? That seems to be the limiting factor on most service pistols. I put novak adjustables on my hi power, accurate to 100y or so.
     
  6. bds

    bds Member

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    Thing is different samples of striker fired pistols can produce different sizes of groups due to different parts used to assemble each pistol.

    Just the trigger alone can make a big difference.

    When I buy any pistol, I dry fire while watching the front sight and buy the one that does not move or jump the front sight. When I bought my last Glock 23, I went through several samples before I found one which did not move/jump the front sight. The gun store staff got curious as to what I was looking for and when I showed him the front sight jumping, he was surprised.

    Over time and thousands of rounds later, trigger surfaces will smooth out and front sight/muzzle won't move/jump as much but for me, I rather start out of the box with pistol that is more accurate (or you can have trigger job/polish done) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902444

    When I bought my M&P Shield 9mm, I had to order online because my LGS could not even come close to online price. This was my first pistol that I bought sight unseen. As many reported, trigger was a bit gritty and front sight jumped when I dry fired. I dry fired several hundred times before I shot it and after 1000 rounds later, front sight does not move when striker is released and has become an accurate pistol.
     
  7. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    I bought my G29 as my first Glock in 15 years. I wanted a 10mm for woods carry and it was the best fit for me. I was amazed at it's accuracy and the light and crisp trigger. I entered it in GSSF and did very well.

    I was told I needed a 9mm to be competitive so I ordered a G19. Trigger was heavier and grittier. Plus, the thing was not nearly as accurate and couldn't do under 2" at 25 yards. Sold it and bought the G35. It's trigger was even worse. Due to GSSF rules, I couldn't run any aftermarket parts, so I had to get creative. Before I started, the Glock armorer at the match said it was the worst trigger he's ever seen on a Glock and was easily around 10 lbs.

    I swapped in various Gen 3 and Gen 4 trigger groups, polished everything and finally got it to around 4.5lbs and still legal. My G29 has never been touched as is around 3.5lbs and is better than the G35 trigger.

    A lot of people are skeptical at the huge disparity in Glock triggers. You just never really know what you're going to get if you buy online, which is pretty much all I can buy due to limited selection and high prices locally.
     
  8. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    My best combo for match shooting is the Dawson green fiber optic front with the stock Glock white outline rear. I pick it up the fastest for some reason. I've tried all black sights, fiber optic dots front and rear, and the Dawson/stock combo just works best for me.
     
  9. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    That thread is epic and will supply me with hours of educational reading!

    It's funny that in my own limited firing of semi-auto pistols that the Rugers tended to be the least accurate. I just did a 4-gun review a couple of months ago and included my dad's new Ruger EC9s. It had groups around 100% larger than the other three pistols.
     
  10. rskent

    rskent Member

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    I don’t. I have never had a trigger that was ten pounds, but I have had one (G42) that was 7 pounds. If you only had one Glock it wouldn’t be a problem. If you have multiples, having them all have the same trigger weight is nice. Luckily, they are easy and cheap to adjust to my sweet spot of 5 ½ Lbs.
     
  11. jjones45

    jjones45 Member

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    Good stuff. I’ve seen glock 34’s and ppq’s achieve these tight groups at distance. I’d bet the 5” caniks and new 5” p10 could do the same. I hear mixed reviews of the xdm longslides accuracy at 25 yards. When I want precision shooting out of a striker fired pistol I go to my walther ppq 5”. That gun can outshoot guns that cost 4 times as much.
     
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  12. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Sure, it can be done, and is done. Unless someone just likes doing it (and its fine if they do), I don't see a point in it. If that was my game, I think I would rather be using some type of hot-rodded single action like a high end 1911 and lots of practice. But different strokes for different folks.
     
  13. Fiv3r

    Fiv3r Member

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    I've only been accidentally accurate a couple times. That's some good shootin' there, fellas.
     
  14. Doublehelix
    • Contributing Member

    Doublehelix Contributing Member

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    You guy are all liars!!! I can't get a 2" group at 25-yards even with one bullet!!! LOL!!! :rofl:

    In all seriousness, Ben Stoeger states in one of his book that any serious competition shooter should be able to get 4" groups or less OFF-HAND at 25 yards every time. I can easily beat this from a rest, but I am still in the 5-6" group category off-hand with .40 competition gun. :(
     
  15. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    Can they, yes. Is it common, no. The materials flex and that introduces variation. The only one-holer striker gun I have ever seen myself is a Glock 42. I can’t shoot that gun well, but my wife is crazy with it.
     
  16. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    The problem I have with just any run of the mill pistol with a 4" give or take barrel making small groups at 25yds is from my own experience, and the fact that I'm a bit of a Thomas.

    The fact that the front sight covers most of a 8" paper plate at 25yds makes it more than hard to believe someone's shooting even a full-size run of the mill pistol with tight groups at that distance, much less a sub compact.

    I'm happy to get all shots on an 8" plate at 25yds, which I can do most of the time "target" shooting. However I don't shoot pistols from a bench.

    But that's not what I use my pistols for so I don't spend much time trying, its mostly an exercise. I really don't see much of a practical purpose for it myself, but to each their own.


    That being said I'd love to see some detailed video of these tight 25yd groups with avg pistols.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  17. bds

    bds Member

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    25 yards with M&P 9mm off hand (not rest/sandbag)



    (Click on "Watch this video on YouTube")
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  18. bds

    bds Member

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    American Rifleman tests pistols using 5 shot groups at 25 yards off sandbags.

    Here are groups for S&W M&P 9mm 2.0 - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/5/22/tested-smith-wessons-mp-m20-pistol/

    Federal HST 124 gr JHP produced 1.33" smallest 5 shot group and 2.58" largest group with 1.91" average group.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  19. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    Never said it couldn't be done, just haven't seen anything that leads me to believe it's all that common.

    I know I can't do it but feel free to show me yours as a "do'er". And I don't mean targets with guns laying on them.
     
  20. bds

    bds Member

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    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  21. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok, I'm going to do some cleanup and try a reset.

    1. The OP is asking about the accuracy of striker-fired polymer pistols. If you have information about that topic, then I'm sure it would be welcome. If you do not, then I can't imagine what would possess you to post on this thread. Along the same lines, if you have information about many different pistols, most of which are neither striker-fired nor polymer, then please take the time to winnow it rather than just providing all of it and expecting the readers and the OP to sort through all the irrelevant data to find the parts that actually apply.

    2. The OP is asking about accuracy as measured by 5 shot groups at 25 yards. If you don't believe that's a valid accuracy measurement technique, then maybe this isn't the thread for you. You're welcome to start another thread espousing pistol accuracy measurement techniques using shots of more than 5 per group or at different ranges and ranting about those who don't do it the way you would. But this thread isn't the place for that.

    3. There's no way this thread is going to work if people start accusing others of lying.
     
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  22. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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  23. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    I did a little Ransom Rest testing with a Glock 19 and a 960 Rowland barrel a couple years ago. Small groups were rare, but one 5-shot group with a Sierra 125 JHP powered by Power Pistol measured 0.88". The other two 5-shot groups measured 1.88" and 2.12".

    One 5-shot group with a 147 grain lead bullet powered with Longshot measured 1.00", the other two 5-shot groups measured 2.00" and 3.38".

    Most all other 5-shot groups were around 2" or more.
     
  24. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    I just ordered one of their triggers for my M&P40c. If I can get a few more 2" groups out of it, then I won't bother with upgrading the barrel. I've used Lone Wolf, KKM, and Storm Lake barrels in my Glocks. Will never buy another Storm Lake barrel. It was worse than my stock barrel and I heard they were bought out by a giant conglomerate with a history of buying firearms-related companies and driving the quality down to maximize profits short term.
     
  25. Otto

    Otto Member

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    It seems easy enough to shoot your groups using only one target....so why not?
    Or better yet, use a Ransom Rest. I bought a Ransom 5 years ago with no regrets.
     
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