Can Enough Practice/Training COMPLETELY Overcome Ergonomics?

Can Enough Practice/Training COMPLETELY Overcome Ergos?

  • Yes (enough practice makes all gun ergos equal)

    Votes: 44 45.4%
  • No (no amount of practice can make all gun ergos equal)

    Votes: 53 54.6%

  • Total voters
    97
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
While I see the "train with it until you are good with it" stance of this discussion it is not where I stand. If you go to a range and rent a firearm, any firearm, and test it out but can't shoot very well with it. You aren't going to look down at the gun and say "Well I should buy it to practice with it until I get better." If you are shooting a rental/loaner/gun other than yours and are terrible it is not going to be much incentive to get your own.

Now on the other hand if you can shoot a rental etc that is accurate you will have a good impression with that firearm and will WANT to practice with it. With the amount of weapons available to everyone, we can afford to be picky and buy what we like. You need a weapon that works with you, not something you have to work at to like.

Important caveat to my rant. Training is the crux to weapon ownership. In order to be proficient you have to practice. Marksmanship is a perishable skill.
 
If you train frequently (and I don't just mean going to the range, I mean taking instructor run courses), I think you can work with most firearms to defend yourself. Some are a bit easier than others. Very few people operate at such a high level that the little differences will really matter.

I notice. That's the point. I put >40k through Glock 9mm then pick up something else and shoot as well or better almost right away. I know the >40k in the Glock has helped make that possible (i.e. general skills learned), but I should shoot the platform with >40k better than the one I just picked up IMO. That's also the point.

I look at the question this way: there's not a thing ergonomically efficient about a baseball bat or a golf club. Neither is optimized for the human hand at all; they're basically round handles with maybe some sort of grip enhancer. Yet people learn to use then and even achieve greatness with them.
But, not all the greats use the same bat. And, many, many more fail in that goal alltogether.


So... let's see if we have this straight. You went with a Glock and even with more than 40K of rounds thru it you admit that you can shoot better with other guns with far less trigger time on them. In fact almost from the moment you pick them up it seems from your story.

Yet despite all the evidence that your body is more in tune with these other platforms you insist on building up and continuing with your Glock commitment?

All I can say is that you've drank so deeply from the Glockade jug that you should be wearing SCUBA gear in order to breath.

If a carpenter picks up a hammer which has a too big, too small or oddly bent handle he doesn't try to keep using it to drive nails despite missing and bending them if there is a better hammer around which works better. The gun is a TOOL. Simple as that.

If you find you can do better with a different brand of tool and that performance matters to you then you'd be crazy to avoid switching simply because of some reputation or expectation for the first tool which never worked out for you.
Umm, yes. Much comment in this poll would support the "you need more practice" or "you need more/better training". Many simply think training/practice can COMPLETELY overcome gun ergos and fit. Hands are different in size, shape, joint flex points, sympathetic action of fingers, etc. The "train/practice more/better" camp says none of this matters. I was in that camp. Over time, I end up with lots of mags, gear, parts and accessories for the Glock 9mm. Then, I'm invested, so I want it to work even more. But, the evidence to the contrary builds up the more different platforms I try.

While I see the "train with it until you are good with it" stance of this discussion it is not where I stand. If you go to a range and rent a firearm, any firearm, and test it out but can't shoot very well with it. You aren't going to look down at the gun and say "Well I should buy it to practice with it until I get better." If you are shooting a rental/loaner/gun other than yours and are terrible it is not going to be much incentive to get your own.

Now on the other hand if you can shoot a rental etc that is accurate you will have a good impression with that firearm and will WANT to practice with it. With the amount of weapons available to everyone, we can afford to be picky and buy what we like. You need a weapon that works with you, not something you have to work at to like.
Starting out, if all the current poly guns existed I don't know I'd have gone Glock. And, yes, I know that says a lot. However, each of the main current poly offerings has things I don't like (e.g. XD grip safety and pinned extractor; S&W rubber insert, pinned extractor and extra parts for mag disconnect (disabled or not); CZ and Sig poly guns are unimpressive IMO; Caracals are still (maybe) up-n-coming, Steyr has not caught on here, etc.). The utilitarian simplicity of the Glock design has always appealed to me and it helped when I was tooling up that the gun, parts, mags and accessories are cheaper than most. And, Glock is "SSP" class in gaming.

I do find it a tad odd that the 19 gives you trouble but the larger Glocks do not. Part of it could be you're so fixated on your trouble with the 19 that every time you go to shoot it you tense up, throwing your shots.
It's the Glock 17, 19 and 26. And, I can't possibly fixate consistenly over 15+ years and >40k rounds. Yes, I know it's me. The gun does what I tell it. The point is I (meaning me, not the gun) don't throw shots the same with other guns. That is speaking more loudly to me more as time goes by.

Thanks all for the comments.
 
Last edited:
I was going to stay out of this because I have discussed the point to death and it seems like folks have their mind made up one way or the other.
COMPLETELY Overcome Ergonomics
I think the operative word is "completely". Suppose I were a Grandmaster USPSA shooter with a classifier average of 97%. Could I switch platforms and divisions and still make GM in a new division? Of course. But, could I pick up a pistol that fit so poorly (the worst gun ergonomically that I can find) that has voids between my hands and the grip panels, a poor grip angle, hard to operate controls, etc., and still make GM? :confused:
 
Well, you seem from your comments that you're willing to analyze the situation. But due to the investment you've made you seem reluctant to really decide to dump the Glock and seem to be hoping that we'll tell you that you just need to practice more. That sound about right?

I'd suggest that if you can pick up another platform and shoot it as well or better within a mag or two compared to guns which you have laboured with for many years and more than 40K rounds then the verdict is already in and you simply don't want to face the music.

It comes down to how badly do you want to improve in the standings in your matches?

Keep in mind that doing well in matches is not only about how accurately you can shoot your gun. Time is the other big, and maybe the BIGGER, player in most handgun competitions. It comes down to how fast and consistently you can obtain a stable and supportive grip on your gun along with how well and naturally for you that the sights align with the target in your hands and how fast you can take the shots while achieving an ACCEPTABLE level of accuracy.

I've got an idea for you to try. If you have holsters you can use for each that are suitable for competition use then work from a holster draw. Othewise rig up some form of holder for the guns that sits on a bench in front of you that mimics the grip presenation of a holster. Set up a shot timer and rig up three targets at typical match distances. With a random beep from the timer get a grip on the gun and rip off double taps on all three targets. Then score the results using normal rules for the event. Note the raw time along with the scores. The raw times will be an indicator of how easily and naturally the gun fits and sights in. Using the shot timer you can even record the split times for each of the 6 shots for study. Especially that all important draw, present, sight and shoot first shot. And to some extent how easily you find it to be for double taps with the recoil for each. Repeat for 4 or 5 passes of this drill. Toss out the slowest pass and average the rest so you're looking at overall best consistency.

If some other gun lets you clearly score higher then it's a slam dunk decision in my books. And if you only match the Glock time and score then it would seem like you can soon surpass your Glock performance with a little practice.

After all, with 40K and more down the pipe you're as good as you're going to get with the Glock. The only way to get better would be to shoot nothing at all for handguns BUT the Glock so that you gain that last little bit. And at this point it will ONLY BE a little bit.

So you'd take a bath by selling all the Glock stuff? I suppose. I guess you have to decide on how badly you want to win or at least move up a few spots on the results. But it sure sounds like you've "hit the wall" results wise with the Glock.

A shooting buddy of mine went through this a while back. He shoots in IPSC Production. He did his first couple of seasons using his beloved Sig P226's. Yep, he's got two. One blued and the other stainless. Loves them to hell and back. But he hit a brick wall and stalled at around the 80% score for a while. He then decided to try using his CZ Shadow for a couple of fun matches. He did so well with that gun right away against the same group of competitors that he made the decision to set aside the Sigs and only shoot his CZ for a while. He quickly climbed up the results to where he's now regularly winning or at least placing in the top three. Could this be your story?
 
I too have hit a wall and switched guns (even shot borrowed guns) and saw a temporary improvement. In my case, it had nothing to do with the gun.
 
Damn. Hit the wrong button. Thanks iPhone.
It is my experience that training can overcome a lot ergo issues AT THE RANGE, but it can't truly fix the problems. I would question how well these "fixes" work in fight or flight situations. While I do fully believe we default to the level of our training in real world situations I have to say I believe people underestimate how much adrenaline will change their shooting.
This is where the issue of ergos will come into play.

From my own life, I had a bad hand injury a few years ago. Gratefully I fully recovered but for a time I was one handing it. This opened my eyes about the ergos of a lot of my guns. Now it is absolutely a requirement that my carry pieces have not only good overall ergos but good one-hand pointability. This is where I returned to 1911's and BHPs simply because both of these designs point so naturally and shoot well single handed.
I look at it like this; almost everyone can be taught to shoot a modern handgun competently with two hands on the range. Rapidly and accurately shooting a gun with one hand is a whole other ball game. And even without injury I believe the odds of shooting with only one hand is much higher than people think.
Mix in some fear and having a deathgrip on the gun.

The downside of my philosophy, at least when it comes to dealing with new shooters, is that there really isn't any shortcuts. A shooter needs to build the fudamentals before even knowing what works best for them, but they need to not buy into any marketing kool-aid during this process. (I can recall a lot of people trying like hell to make the USP work for them "cause it's the best".)
Finally, they need to get some good trigger time on different guns. And possibly, maybe, be willing to accept that the "Glock Perfection" may not be the best gun for them, or HK or whatever they have their heart set on.
I feel after reliability that ergos and pointability for the individual shooter is far more important than things like bore axis, trigger reset and all sorts of the other things we all like to talk about constantly on the net. :D

Now half of my philosophy goes out the window when we start talking about gun games because there you have different philosophies. Long term high round count durability, large capacity mags, aftermarket suport and so forth.



Sent from my iPhone
 
I think the operative word is "completely".
This is correct. That's why it's in capitals. It's not about poor vs. well, which is what many here seem to gravitate towards in comments. I shoot Glock 9mms well, better than most from my observation. It's about well vs. better. I consistently shoot other guns as well or better with less practice or "warm up" (e.g. fewer flyers and better POI center around POA). It's not huge, but I notice.

Well, you seem from your comments that you're willing to analyze the situation. But due to the investment you've made you seem reluctant to really decide to dump the Glock and seem to be hoping that we'll tell you that you just need to practice more. That sound about right?
Hardly looking to be told what to do. I'm too old for that. However, I've been in the "more/better practice/training" fixes anything camp since I've been a shooter, as are the nearly 50% that selected to the "practice COMPLETELY trumps ergos" response. So, I stuck with Glock 9mm and kept practicing. But, I'm becoming convinced through personal experience that (1) I must not skilled enough a shooter that gun ergos don't matter, or (2) regardless of skill ergos may always play a part in that last "10%" (or whatever % advantage).


I'd suggest that if you can pick up another platform and shoot it as well or better within a mag or two compared to guns which you have laboured with for many years and more than 40K rounds then the verdict is already in and you simply don't want to face the music.
I don't want to start over; that song (using the music metaphor) sucks indeed. It comes down I guess to how bad I want a last bit of personal improvement. Honestly, I expected less support for ergos may always matter regardless of practice/training in the poll. So, that's been valuable.
 
Last edited:
Coalman, If you ever get lucky enough to stumble across the right ergo setup you will know it. It's almost a religious experience. When the gun fits you can hit anything in any light. If you can see it you can hit it if it's within reasonable range.

That was what my old S&W Mod 19-2 with Mustang grips was like. PPC scores of of 98 or better day in day out for years and not one single shot fired single action. I didn't need to. I flat out couldn't miss with that gun.

*sigh* I miss that gun. Like a fool I thought it was me so I sold it when I went back to school. I thought I could just buy another one when I could afford it. I found out the hard way it wasn't just me. *heavier sigh*
 
I had an FNP-40. Never could get a really good group. Shot the absolute hell out of it too. Bought an XD-40. Started shooting good groups almost right away. Went back to the FN. Same as before.

So no, I say no.
 
There is no maybe, but I voted "no". My wife's hands are so small she can't reach the trigger on most guns, so no amount of practice would ever help.

Then "most" would not understand that small hands are not necessarily a hindrance to shooting larger handguns well. I know plenty of smaller-handed females -- and some males, who can, for example, shoot full-size 1911s with amazing results.

The 1911 platform also has about the shortest trigger reach of all full-sized handguns. It's much shorter than the comparatively smaller Sig P232 and Walther PP(K). My wife can just barely reach the 1911 trigger, and to do it she can't hold the gun in the webbing of her thumb (she has to put the grip frame more into the 1st joint of the thumb to reach the trigger).

She owns three handguns. She can just reach the trigger on her Ruger SR-22 in SA mode, she can comfortably reach it on her Colt 1903 and she has no problem with her Colt 1908. Other than those guns, most just don't work. She picked up a Glock at a gun show and the tip of her trigger finger didn't even reach the trigger! Yes, her hands are amazingly small, the are only a little bigger than my 5 year old son's hands, and he is only average size for his age.
 
Last edited:
I shoot my Kel Tec and my KP90DC Ruger best of all my autos, but I can adapt to about anything. I can pick up a Glock and it doesn't fall out of my hand. :rolleyes: I can do good work with it and if I shoot it a lot as I have those two pistols I own, I'll get just as good with it. I shoot a LOT of variety, single action revolvers and cap and ball are a passion and I love my .357s and my little .38 snubs.

But, whatever gives YOU confidence. Confidence is important. If it's in your mind that you can't shoot a Glock because of its feel, then you probably won't shoot it well.

Point shooting is more dependent upon ergos than sights, but I can point shoot a LOT of various firearms just fine for self defense. I practice a LOT and I never spent money on a course other than an NRA instructor certification I took. I have shot a lot of competition, though.
 
I don't want to start over; that song (using the music metaphor) sucks indeed. It comes down I guess to how bad I want a last bit of personal improvement. Honestly, I expected less support for ergos may always matter regardless of practice/training in the poll. So, that's been valuable.

I can certainly appreciate that you're not looking to be told to buy this or that. And I can certainly understand not wanting to sell off a package that you've invested in unless you have very good reasons.

As you say though, in the end it'll come down to how badly you want that last 10, 15 or whatever % of difference.

I've got a buddy up this way that shoots a CZ Shadow. Simply loves the gun to bits and back. But he's got short fingers on a medium size hand. He tells me that he had to face and accept the fact that he can't shoot the CZ in double action for the first shot worth crap. So he simply accepted that and shoots it in SA starting from a holster draw with the safety engaged the same as a 1911 or similar SA only gun. It bumps him up to ESP in IDPA and if he shot in IPSC it would obviously push him into Standard. But he's OK with all this and just carries on. He's SORT of in the same boat as you in that he's limited in which class he can shoot his gun within. Mind you the gun in SA fits and works for him all too well. So perhaps it's not QUITE the same.

Anyway, whatever you decide all the best of luck with staying or converting. And hopefully you didn't find my replies too rough. At first glance I though perhaps you had just drank too deeply from the Glockaide pitcher and were looking for us to justify your choices for you :D But as your followup replies were posted I began to understand why you were asking and appreciate your reluctance to switch after making such a big investment in the guns and related gear. And you're certainly right to want to examine ALL the options since that does represent a considerable investment.

If you decide to stick it out with the Glocks then great. But like my buddy with his Shadow you may need to accept how you and your Glocks get along. Like I said, I strongly suspect that at over 40K of rounds downrange the "relationship" between you and your Glocks is about as good as it's going to get. Another 40K isn't likely to make a whole heap of difference.

If you do elect to switch over then all the best with it and I hope you trip over some deals to take away some of the financial sting. Just don't accept that one brand or other is not that obtainable due to the choice of the local shops in what they handle. With mail and internet shopping anything sold in the US is about as common as any other. Or at least common enough that some perception of rarity simply isn't really that valid. Hell, up this way CZ is so common that the local IPSC clubs have all but re-named the IPSC Production class as the "Shadow one design class" other than on official documents.... :D
 
I agree with BCRider, it's not going to get better after the next 40k rounds...so it is decision time.

I have a client/friend is is going through a similar situation. He believes in having 3 of which ever platform he settles on and his logic is flawless.

He learned on a SIG 226 9mm and was becoming quite competent, but needed something smaller for CCW. He sold the 226s and bought 2 H&K P2000s (both FS and compact), he is getting pretty good with the light LEM trigger, but the cost of the platform, makes getting a third a sticking point.

He recently started exploring the G19 platform, but became a victim of their "casing in face" issue, which the first return to the factory didn't seem to fix.

He is now considering going the M&P9 route...with the readily available Apex Tactical parts to address any issues which might come up.

The point is that he isn't emotionally attached to any platform and is willing to change the route he travels to address his SD/competition needs
 
I don't believe in the old adage that practice makes perfect. Practice will certainly make you better. When everything about what you are practicing with fits you will be better than with something that doesn't fit as well.
 
I'm on the same page as Sam1911 on the matter.


A gun that fits someone's hands will be easier to work, and quicker to master, than one that doesn't fit as well. I see a whole lot of people who try to make a gun work, struggle through it, and eventually get to a point where they do "OK". Had they made their choice - if they were able to make a choice - with proper gun fit as the priority above all else, such as capacity or caliber, they wouldn't struggle so much.


Can you train through it? Probably. But sometimes, no.

In the end, unless you have no choice in your handgun, why try to force it?

By the way, if you want to allow my colleague 9mmE' to evaluate your shooting, you can upload a video to youtube that is viewed by invitation only. Just a thought.
 
Yes it can go slow and concentrate on the basics of trigger pull, grip , sight picture and as you build muscle memory you will pick up speed. I had to slow down quite a bit when transitioning from a Beretta, SIG, or 1911 to a glock. The transition back doesnt take as much time because of the familiar grip angle. I always advise new Glock shooters to concentrate on shooting "Only" their Glock untill it feels right then go back to shooting everything else.
 
The basics of shooting never change.

Top shooters will always remain the best.

Very good shooters will also remain very good.

Good shooters probably are the affected. It depends on how much money and time they have available to practice to really learn the weapon.
 
Yes it can go slow and concentrate on the basics of trigger pull, grip , sight picture and as you build muscle memory you will pick up speed. I had to slow down quite a bit when transitioning from a Beretta, SIG, or 1911 to a glock. The transition back doesnt take as much time because of the familiar grip angle. I always advise new Glock shooters to concentrate on shooting "Only" their Glock untill it feels right then go back to shooting everything else.
On the Glock thing, that took one magazine in my case. It was a remarkable improvement right out of the box, but it only happens with the sub-compacts. At 25 yards I had 10 holes in a group the size of a medicine bottle cap, and it covered the "X".

The only other gun I have ever done better with is my first true love, my first S&W Mod 19. I can't do it with an XD 40 SC, I can come close with my 66-2, and my 1911 is halfway between the two of those. I'm not even going to discuss my J frames.
 
Also agree with BD Rider. Not sure if there has ever been another shooter who has purchased multi versions of the same brand gun and invested 40,000 rounds who was still asking this question. Why don't you cut your losses and just go with the 1911 platform? That's what seems to work best for you so why continue to fight to find another answer? Some people will swear by a Ford, Gm or whatever and will always always find a reason to find best attributes from their preferred brand time and time again.

The other point is that this all seems to be about a very great group over a really good group. Unless you are a bulls eye shooter, its all about reliable hits in the critical mass. I am not a bulls eye shooter and have been advised by mentors to focus on CM hits at ranges from 3 to 7 yards with increasingly fast trigger pulls since that is what is important in SD shooting. Use what is comfortable and what you like. Don't try to force X to work as well as Y if Y is what you do best with.
 
Coalman, I know your pain. When I first graduated I bought a glock 32, and thought I like the ergos. Same as my Ruger Standard I have had since I was 11. The sad fact is I spent a lot of time and $$ trying to make it work for me, but the moment I picked up an FNP-9 was like a choir of angels. It sang to me, and was way more accurate than I ever was with the 32. Now I know some say your comparing apples n oranges, but the experience was the same. Sometimes it just pays to move on.
 
I attened an Advanced Combat Pistol course taught by a salty old Senior Cheif from the SEAL teams. I went there with another corpsman and couple of 1st Force Recon Marines. The course used the SEAL's MK 25 (aka: Sig 226 in 9mm). A couple of the Recon guys complained that the sig didn't feel as good as their custom 1911's they were accustomed to. The Senior walked right up and siad: "If you don't like the way it feels, shoot it until you do." After 10 days and 40K rounds a piece, we were all shooting the sigs like they were laserguns, cutting soup can size holes out of targets at up to 35 yds. If you get ENOUGH practice, you can learn to shoot anything, the very best do, just ask the SEALs.
 
I attened an Advanced Combat Pistol course taught by a salty old Senior Cheif from the SEAL teams. I went there with another corpsman and couple of 1st Force Recon Marines. The course used the SEAL's MK 25 (aka: Sig 226 in 9mm). A couple of the Recon guys complained that the sig didn't feel as good as their custom 1911's they were accustomed to. The Senior walked right up and siad: "If you don't like the way it feels, shoot it until you do." After 10 days and 40K rounds a piece, we were all shooting the sigs like they were laserguns, cutting soup can size holes out of targets at up to 35 yds. If you get ENOUGH practice, you can learn to shoot anything, the very best do, just ask the SEALs.
40,000 rounds per in ten days is a fair pile. How much did this class cost?

Did you get to use their pistols? Those pistols were about wore out in that time.. a write-off.
 
Uh, yeah -- 40,000 rounds in 10 days? This was a commercial course? If you're gonna say this was military training, I'm gonna ask what, where and when ... 4,000 PISTOL ROUNDS PER PERSON PER DAY? 'Cause I never got to shoot more'n 500 pistol rounds a day ...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top