Can someone please educate me about Waco and Ruby Ridge?

[swampsniper]

Telewinz, I do not give a damn WHO ELSE lied, it is the government, law enforcement and the courts who MUST be held to the standard of absolute honesty. It is understandable that those being charged with crimes are likely to lie, unforgivable when the prosecution does so.
The penalty for obtaining a warrant, a court order, or any other approval of action, based on false information, should be as for treason, such acts are treason against the citizens.

 

[telewinz]

INVESTIGATION INTO THE ACTIVITIES OF FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES
TOWARD THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS

The ATF agents executing the raid were not required to knock and
announce their intention to serve the arrest and search warrants. Given
that the arrest and search warrants were based, in part, on the evidence
that the Davidians were in possession of illegal automatic weapons, the
subcommittees believe it was reasonable for the ATF to have presumed
that the Davidians might fire on them had they announced their intent to
serve the warrants in advance. Accordingly, the subcommittees conclude
that the ATF was not required to knock and announce their intention to
serve either the arrest warrant or the search warrant because to do so
would have measurably increased the risk to the ATF agents involved.

"Finally, ATF officials testified at the hearings that they abandoned
the idea of trying to arrest Koresh outside the residence because their
primary goal was to get inside to conduct a search. These officials
maintained that it was preferable to attack the residence by surprise
and get Koresh and the guns at the same time.\45\"

Simply put, the Davidians knew that the ATF agents were coming.
And while the ATF expected to serve a search warrant for Koresh
and search the residence, the Davidians apparently feared the worst that
law enforcement agents or military troops were coming to arrest all of
them or, perhaps kill them. In any event, some of the Davidians armed
themselves and lay in ambush, waiting for the arrival of the ATF agents.

 

[seeker_two]

And while the ATF expected to serve a search warrant for Koresh, the Davidians apparently feared the worst that
law enforcement agents or military troops were coming to arrest all of
them or, perhaps kill them.

Maybe he was a prophet after all...

telewinz: I appreciate your posts of the Danforth investigations, but do you have ANYTHING from an independent, NON-GOVERNMENTAL source to back up your position?

 

[Baba Louie]

Yeah tel,

thats why Koresh met them at the door armed with a child (his?) at his hip. Wasn't that child the first casualty? Did you find that in the reams of sworn testimony or is that another unsubstantiated hearsay rumor?

Did ya read any of the recommended books yet? Or are ya sticking to the straight Uncle Sam version?

Maybe the baby was a human shield. Yeah, I wouldn't put it past the despicable cur (and I mean that). He was a power crazed dude with delusions I can only imagine came straight from hades. Reminds me of the Jim Jones cyanide laced kool-aid weirdos from back in '78.

In the name of God we commit these crimes or otherwise heinous acts.

Some peoples kids.

The local po-po have the ability to do a house inspection based on building code violations and as such your local building inspector has the power of a LEO... junk cars in yard? Weeds waist high? They can enter. Signed warrant? They can sure get one if they need to based on what they find inside (meth lab?)

Thats why the question arises about the ATF pre-notifying the local press about the raid...

Weren't they looking for a little publicity to help boost a budget or something? Did you find anything to that effect or is that another hearsay issue? Were there any press at the scene as they rolled up? Why? (To answer my own question... yes, the camera's were rolling at the time)

I've tried to keep away from this one and not pull any ad homs... and its hard to keep biting my tongue as I'm sure it must be for you as well.

We will have to agree to disagree and keep it at that.

A warning to all tho'... never live in a compound, keep multiple families as your audience and deal with gunshows and inert hand grenade mementos or heck-fire trigger burst devices... it kind of upsets a certain tax agency from what I gather.

Adios

 

[swampsniper]

Ah, yes, and now millions fear "the worst". Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
We can go back to the very first argument as to the intent of the Second Amendment, and find the roots of the problem. The Bill of Rights was intended, once and for all, to put an end to issues that had plagued society throughout recorded history. Ben Franklin knew what would come when he told the lady,"A Republic, Madam,if you can keep it".
Had government remained in the position the Constitution assigned to it, the paranoia that became the basis for all of this would not have come about.
Pandoras box is opened. God save our Republic

 

[rhedley]

This thread needs to rethink

those *facts* you keep throwing around.

Do you remember any of this??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


~ The Military helicopter circling for hours before the *Surprise Raid*

~ The ATF's *own man* telling the *Glory Raiders* that the Davidians knew they where coming.

~ With all the High Quality Govt. purchased Video cameras [several] being carried on the *Raid* , and they all malfunctioned, resulting in NO VIDEO. [???]

~ The front door of the "Compound" that was collected as evidence, but was "LOST" before it could be shown in court. [ ??]

~ Male Davidian's SHOT trying to climb fence to get *in* the compound to be with their families.

~ The Military tanks pushing up the smoldering compound remains, to aid in completely destroying a "Crime Scene".

......... ever hear of any this before..?
How do you " Govt. Apologist" get around these confirmable facts ?

 

[Byron Quick]

telewinz,

Federal prosecutors routinely attack the sworn testimony of witnesses for the defense. The prosecutors present evidence to the jury of instances where these witnesses lied. The federal prosecutors then maintain that this brings into doubt anything the witnesses now state. The prosecutors maintain that past lies invalidate present testimony...thus the witnesses are not creditable.

So here we have FBI agents who lied and tampered with evidence on an individual basis. We also have the FBI caught in a lie as an institution. We have ATF agents who lied and we have the ATF caught in lies as an institution. The testimony to these acts is embodied in the reports that you cite.

The only difference is that individual federal agents and federal law enforcement agencies were ruled to be creditable witnesses even after being caught in a continuing pattern of lies.

Why should federal agents and federal agencies be held to a different standard? Are they above the law?

Neither the Branch Davidians nor the Weavers are heroes of mine, sir. But the actions of both individual agents and the federal agencies involved were wrong...no matter the whitewash.

Or do you believe that the FBI agent who destroyed evidence is an upstanding, honorable member of the law enforcement community? The FBI, as an institution, maintained for six years that there were no pyrotechnic devices present at Waco. Are the administrative FBI agents who maintained this lie for six years upstanding, honorable public servants?
Are you proud they are your public servants?

I'm not. They make me want to puke. They are not fit to lick the shoes of decent Americans.

 

[labgrade]

Best case, the state had an allegation of child abuse (in my mind), which had been previously discounted by Texas state Dept of (yada) - unfounded ... to date & never proven, & not ever brought up in any court - other than iscounted aftertward allegations - was never any aspect of the initial "search warrant."

There is that "illegal weapons" which, by all accounts could have been taken care of by arresting/questioning the principal when in town, weekly, if not daily.

& stilll, is not a "tax evasion charge" a purvue of the IRS, & not that of the BATF?

Worst case here. DK, et al, was in violation of an IRS-hit & not that of the BATF?

I must be curious why we also have an added, & extra fed-community to prosecute them for "extra-violations" of those already coveed by the tax-code-folks."

Why is it we "need" to have an extra fed-agency to prosecute a(nother) tax violation? Isn't that just over-kill ( not to be redundant?) Why isn't the IRS capable of handling the violations of notr properly registering full-autos? It IS a tax-code thing.

In short, why the hellwas the BATF ever on-scene to begin with?

 

[C.R.Sam]

In short.
In some cases...
The penalty for resisting taxation is death.

Sam

 

[GinSlinger]

CR Sam,
In all cases does taxation equal death.
To wit:
If I refuse to pay my taxes I will be imprisoned.

If I attempt to maintain my freedom (resist arrest) or regain my freedom (escape) I will be shot.

As PJ O'Rourke said, "When looking at the budget always ask yourself 'Would I kill my mother for this?'."

And for all of those ppl who say that the war on some drugs doesn't affect them; look at these situations and ask yourself if Gestapo tactics like no-knock-warrants and military assistance in policing would have happened here if it wasn't for the 80 years of the WOsD.

GinSlinger

 

[telewinz]

Doing OT on the chain-gang again...

Listen, I would enjoy greatly getting other sources of reliable information and I do search the WEB for responsible opinion/facts. There are degrees to credible evidence as there are degrees to a burn. A left or right wing group's opinion carries little weight with me. Name me an officially recognized Independent investigation and I will happily read it. How about an investigation by a responsible newspaper? Again the government's investigation is not perfect but its still the best available.

Disobeying the tax laws and possessing illegal weapons and explosives does not carry the death penalty. But offering armed violence to law enforcement agents performing their duty can, its called self-defense what is new in this?

The Feds are held to a higher standard, that does not mean that NO STANDARD is required of the other party.

I never said the government was blameless or the investigations were perfect but they do tip the scales in the government's favor. If the ACLA or some other group has not seen fit to conduct their own investigation that might come up with a different version then they have failed in their duty and it is the public's loss.

Tip the scales in your favor with credible evidence, not opinion or slanted facts. There is tons of credible evidence to support the government's position and little to support the other side. This may in fact be unfair due to the governments resources but its true none the less.

Time to go to bed, I have to work OT Wednesday also.

 

[rhedley]

Now I see the picture

telewinz

Everything I said is easily checked out Did you see the 51 days as it was reported on CNN? Did you see the machines pushing up the still burning embers, the remains of the *Crime Scene* ?? The Texas Rangers refused to turn evidence over to the FBI , they turned it over to the court, then the Court did what the FBI would have done, buried it..

I think you want someone to lay this out for you.. Check it out yourself, unless you are content with your present position...

 

[Uncle Ethan]

Having watched the final hours of the compound live on TV, and having gone to Waco to the site of the compound three times, the question that bothers me most is why it was necessary to limit the time the defendants Attorney's had to investigate the remains of the compound before it was bulldozed. This hampered any possibility of a discovery team checking for evidence that might bolster the BD's claims that they were attacked in the tunnels underground, as well as fired upon while trying to leave. What was the hurry to level the place? Why not allow time for evidence to be confirmed. If it was as the Feds said evidence would show it, then people today would be far more confidant in Federal Law Enforcement.

 

[labgrade]

telewinz,

"Disobeying the tax laws and possessing illegal weapons and explosives does not carry the death penalty. But offering armed violence to law enforcement agents performing their duty can, its called self-defense what is new in this?"

Firstly, from a strictly legal matter, that the specific branch has no authority whatsoever to attempt an enforcement of their "authority" over a specific legal aspect. Whatever that means, right?

BATF initially went in regards a "tax matter" (not their pervue in the first place, but was then twisted then into a "child abuse" case," which was a pervue of Texas legalities, & nothing of the BATF, nor the FBI. So, whereever did the feds come into play here at all?

Not to mention that there is a constitutional legitimacy that says that .... well, go read what used to be known as the second amendment. Used to be read that we can possess any darned thing "we" want - pre-'34 & now gutted to what they require.

But I digress.

If we can be so convoluted as to require a "what if" in who gets to enforce what, are not all the laws out of bounds from the git-go?

Really, & I ask from the bottom of my heart from a mere citizen to a CO, what the hell laws are y'all allowed to enforce?

& if y'all attempt to enforce illegal laws, are we just to submit, or are we allowed to resist.

I know the answer. I just want to hear it in your own words.

Thanks.

 

[C.R.Sam]

There is tons of credible evidence to support the government's position and little to support the other side.

After the government was through grabbing, destroying or burying the evidence. There was precious little left for independant analysis.

If you have nothing to hide; why hide it ?

Sam

 

[telewinz]

CR Sam

The same evidence is a two sided sword, it can be (and is ) used by both sides. Maybe the destruction of the buildings was not an attempt to destroy evidence (what evidence, the 47 illegal weapons?) but was intended to serve the same purpose as scattering the ashes of the Germans hung for their war crimes. I don't know the reason, I can only guess as everyone else. I have not found any testimony (yet) on an explanation but IIRC this certainly is not the first time LE has lost evidence or even had it stolen from the evidence room. Is the "missing" evidence harmfull to the government's case? Who KNOWS, its missing.

labgrade

What illegal laws are you taking about, Or do you mean unpopular laws?
Being a lawbreaker doesn't mean you are a "heroic patriot" or are you picking and choosing which laws you wish LE to be tough on? Even the NRA demands LE enforce existing laws rather than create new ones.

From the sub-committee's minority report

"Additionally, it should be noted that evidence obtained from the
scene after the fire, conclusively proved that Koresh amassed a huge
cache of weapons and materials to manufacture illegal weapons. Although much evidence may have been destroyed by the April 19 fire set by the Davidians, at least 47 fully automatic weapons,"

"Any doubts Koresh or others may have had about the validity of the
warrants should have been expressed through lawful means. However, instead of challenging the validity of the warrants through the judicial system, Koresh chose to instruct his followers to open fire on Federal agents in the lawful execution of their duties"

"It should be remembered that at the criminal trial of the 11 Branch
Davidians, none of the defense lawyers challenged the validity of the
warrants. A successful challenge by any of the defense attorneys at
trial would have excluded evidence of the firearms and would have been a major step in acquitting the defendants of the firearms violations.Therefore, it seems incomprehensible that had such a challenge been possible, it would not have been mounted by one of the many able attorneys representing the 11 Branch Davidians. However, no attorney
questioned the validity of the warrants."

"Additionally, we should note that the
original raid was planned for March 1. However, on February 27, a local
newspaper began a highly critical seven-part series of articles focusing
on Koresh and the Branch Davidians. The series detailed several
allegations against Koresh of child physical and sexual abuse which
could have potentially exposed him to serious State criminal charges.
Therefore, there was reason to believe that Koresh would expect a
heightened interest from State or Federal authorities following the
conclusion of the series and may have destroyed evidence of the illegal
weapons in anticipation of a search. The date of the raid was moved from
March 1 to February 28."

The radical right wingers hurt themselves, they forced the feds to act sooner rather than later;

"and the gathering of other interested and potentially dangerous individuals (para-military and Militia groups) contributed to their concern about the continued degradation of the situation and their ability to adequately secure the perimeter of the compound. In fact, during the standoff two people, not people previously affiliated with the Davidians, infiltrated the perimeter and entered the compound. The FBI was concerned that failing to end the standoff would allow others (particularly para-military militia groups) who had begun to descend upon the compound to enter the perimeter. Threats posed by gathering militia and para-military groups in the area increased security problems and underscored the need for a quick resolution to the situation. There was a genuine concern as to whether these groups had gathered as observers or sought to engage in the standoff. "

 

[swampsniper]

Telewinz, the Davidians were not radical ".
Right Wingers"
I personally find a lot of the Davidian beliefs and practices abhorent.Randy Weavers lifestyle is not one I would choose. It is true, however, that the wolf takes his prey from the edge of the flock. The Weavers, and the Davidians were on the fringes, that has never been denied. But is is also wise to assume that if the wolf is allowed to prey on the fringes, he will soon work in toward the center.
Not very long after all of this went down many of us recieved a release from the NRA cautioning us not to become identified with the "lunatic fringe". I am sure that others here will recall this. My reply to the NRA was, "what are you going to do to protect me when I become the one on the edge"? They must have heard a lot of this response, because the lid got clamped really fast.
This issue must be remembered, and it must be used as an example to each new generation, of the absolute need to keep government on a strong and short chain. Let the alphabet agency boys bitch and moan all they want, but they must know that there are still American warriors watching them. If they can't deal with it, tough ????.
Just as Texans "Remember the Alamo", Ruby Ridge and Waco will be remembered.

 

[telewinz]

Their religious beliefs should not excuse the Davidians from being considered radical right wingers. "It it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....". And speaking about the NRA ( I am a proud member) and not getting involved with the lunatic fringe...improper involvement was conducted by BOTH SIDES on this issue.

ADDITIONAL VIEWS OF HON. TOM LANTOS

I welcome the dissenting views on the majority report, which I have
signed with a large number of my colleagues. That statement points out
clearly the many serious deficiencies of the majority report.
One issue, which is completely ignored in the majority report but
which was raised at the time of the original hearings and which is
raised in the dissenting views which I have signed, is the issue of the
highly questionable involvement of an outside interest group--the
National Rifle Association--in the investigation which preceded the
hearing.
It is my view that this issue deserves greater attention and
investigation. The active involvement of an outside organization in a
subcommittee investigation raises the most fundamental questions about
the integrity of the entire investigation, and the failure to address
this important matter is a fundamental flaw of the majority report.
The outside organization--the National Rifle Association (NRA)--is
not a disinterested third party. That organization and its leaders have
made it clear that they had a particular point of view on the matters
being considered by the subcommittee. Members of the subcommittee
repeatedly urged the chairman of the subcommittee to investigate these
matters, and the chairman has repeatedly refused to do so. In the
interest of fairness and integrity, it is important that these issues be
made part of this report.
The first matter is the subcommittee majority's use of outside
``experts'' to test firearms. These ``experts'' were contracted for and
paid for (at a cost of some $25,000) by the National Rifle Association.
Furthermore, the chairman of the subcommittee and members of the
majority staff initially tried to cover-up the involvement of the
National Rifle Association, and majority staff even refused to identify
to officials of the U.S. Department of Justice the name of the outside
advocacy group which selected and paid for the outside experts.
Furthermore, in conversation with Justice Department officials, majority
staff admitted that the so-called ``experts'' in fact had no expertise
whatsoever in firearms testing. Later, during the course of the hearings
the involvement of the National Rifle Association in this case did
become public.
The second issue is the matter of an employee of the National Rifle
Association identifying herself as a member of the subcommittee staff to
at least one individual who was called to testify before the
subcommittee. Furthermore, two witnesses testified under oath during the
hearings that they were contacted by an employee of the National Rifle
Association prior to testifying at the hearing. This raises serious
questions about witness tampering. Again this issue was not investigated
by the subcommittee chairman and is not dealt with in the majority
report.
Both of these instances regarding the involvement of the National
Rifle Association in the congressional hearing and investigative process
not only raise questions about the ethical behavior of the majority
staff, but also may be a violation of the law.

"Just as Texans "Remember the Alamo", Ruby Ridge and Waco will be remembered." IMHO Very few will remember Ruby Ridge and WACO, its already passing from main stream America's memory.

 

[swampsniper]

Mainstream America can't remember where they put their shoes most of the time. They will remember to pick up a six pack, and that's about it. Some will remember, they always do.

 

[hammer4nc]

telewinz posted:

And speaking about the NRA ( I am a proud member) and not getting involved with the lunatic fringe...improper involvement was conducted by BOTH SIDES on this issue.

...and then proceeded to post a spewing by rabid, foaming at-the-mouth gun-grabber Tom Lantos (Brady Campaign rating 100%). That he undoubtedly copied from the rickross.com website. Which he purported to represent as a mainstream opinion (haha)???

Interesting to note that the content of this little diatribe, Lantos attempted to exclude the NRA from participating in the Waco hearings. (Apparently they know nothing of firearms). So, here is telewinz (proud member of NRA), incessantly bragging that the senate hearings and report were "unbiased", "heard from all sides", etc.; posting a perfect example of just the opposite: avowed anti-gunners attempting to manipuilate the process by excluding participation. Of course, I'm sure telewinz neither understood, nor cares about these points...otherwise the bizarre contradictions suggest severe neurological defects.

What's next telewinz, you going to start posting Schumer quotes to defend your weak position?

My friend, with the talents and skills you've demonstrated in this thread, you'll have a long and very promising career in government service. You really owe it to yourself to start circulating your resume in DC...they are always in need of folks such as yourself.

 

[cpileri]

proof

~ The Military tanks pushing up the smoldering compound remains, to aid in completely destroying a "Crime Scene".

Y'know, it might be more convincing if pictures of these tanks were actually available to be seen pushing crime scenes around, flames coming from the turret gun, etc.

Do a search for them and let us know how many blind links turn up!
C-

 

[Uncle Ethan]

I saw the final day live with the "tanks" pushing in the walls of the compound, as well as poking holes- I then also saw a video tape of the same event that was sold a few months afterward, that showed the "Tanks" with "flame" fastened to the muzzle of the gun- I never saw any flame on any "tank" when I watched it live. Be careful of what you watch that could be doctored. I have lost faith in the FBI, and I never had any in the BATF, but I don't condone manufactured evidence either. Those Federal agencies have enough actual screwups to correct without false info being put out.

 

[telewinz]

hammer4nc...get more rest

hammer4nc: wrong again

..."and then proceeded to post a spewing by rabid, foaming at-the-mouth gun-grabber Tom Lantos (Brady Campaign rating 100%). That he undoubtedly copied from the rickross.com website."

The quotes are from the official Congressional investigation, you didn't even know he was on the subcommittee did you? You are now resorting to attacking the man rather than the facts he presents? Is this your latest (and best?) debating ploy? It wasn't in the movies and it may not have been in any best selling(?) book but it's true non-the-less. Whats next, his feet are too small or he has body odor? You really need to put more effort into this debate, your leaps of logic (?) leave much to be desired. If you READ the congressional report you would find SEVERAL Congressman made the same observation. Its not uncommon to have disagreements in and INDEPENDENT investigation where BOTH sides are represented.

Uncle Ethan and cpileri.............

Analysis of the Issues Relating to the Fire.

During the their testimony before the Subcommittees, the three fire experts stated their opinions as to the cause of the fire. They also discussed the several other theories as to the fire's origin which had been circulating in the media. Their testimony, coupled with the visual evidence provided by the FLIR and other videotape recordings made on April 19, conclusively prove that multiple fires began in different places inside the Branch Davidian residence and that they were deliberately set by the Davidians themselves.

Some citizens have contacted the Subcommittees and forward to them copies of a video sold by an organization antagonistic to the government which attempts to explain many aspects of the government's actions at Waco, including the start of the fire. The makers of that videotape allege that the combat engineering vehicles used at Waco carried flame throwing devices which were used to intentionally set the fires inside the Branch Davidian residence. During the hearings, the fire experts were questioned about this theory. On another day of the hearings, a Defense Department witness testified that all of the military vehicles loaned by the Defense Department to the Department of Justice and used at Waco were unarmed. Additionally, the Subcommittees' interviews with other present at the Branch Davidian residence on April 19 confirms that none of these vehicles was armed. Given this fact, and the fact that had a flamethrower or similar device been installed on one of the CEVs its use would have been observable in the FLIR video, the Subcommittees conclude that the government did not use any of the military vehicles to intentionally set the fire. Additionally, as the evidence before the Subcommittees clearly demonstrate that no fire began near the time when any of the CEVs came in contact with the structure, the Subcommittees conclude that it is highly unlikely that the use of the CEVs inadvertently caused the fires to begin.

Trumpet sounding.....my 1000th post!

 

[Tamara]

There were no flames from the "tanks" (actually CEV's and Bradleys).

Hearing folks say that said CEV's did not actually flatten large swathes of the compound, however, is pretty droll.

(I know that's my preferred technique if I think there's a bunch of little kids being held hostage in a wood frame building full of exposed point heat sources like braziers and lanterns: Drive tracks through the plywood walls! That'll get those children to safety! )

 

[Intune]

Tele, my point in all this is why do it then? On a windy day, when they know, if they have half a brain, that it would be potentially dangerous to pump cs in there. They set us up with press releases and you bought into it. The “children are being abused.†Bah! They got tired of being DEFIED! Nothing more, nothing less. Sad. If that complex had burst into flames and every man, woman and child had been killed by what the Branch folks had done I would feel a lot better. Whatever was done, OUR govt precipitated it. That is sad. Our governmental agencies don’t like defiance, are you just figuring that out? The JUSTIFICATION of what was done is what sticks in my craw and many others. No reason.

My addendum to my post is this. If OUR govt. was so sure that everything was by the book, WHY trash a crime scene? The first year rookie knows not to. Unless…. One wants to cover their buttocks. If this fact doesn’t make one say, “hmm,†nothing will.