Can someone please educate me about Waco and Ruby Ridge?

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Tamara

How many followers of Koresh are either in prison now or were in prison for their actions connected with Waco? Seven

How many Feds are in prison for their actions? zero

You may assume what you will, I assume you will continue to do so. Its hard to break old habits.
 
How many followers of Koresh are either in prison now or were in prison for their actions connected with Waco? Seven

Seven. Each and every one of which a jury of their peers found "Not Guilty".

You may assume what you will, I assume you will continue to do so. Its hard to break old habits.

Oh, yeah, there are a lot of assumptions going on here, but I'm not the one making them. You got your facts on these cases from a History Channel special, eh?

What was the amount that the Federales wound up paying to Weaver after losing the civil suit following their collossal screwup?

Why is Evil Weaver still running around loose?

How many illegal machine guns were the Davidians convicted of manufacturing?

How many children were the Davidians convicted of abusing?

How much meth were the Davidians convicted of making?





It's okay to say "I don't know", as it's growing apparent that that's your answer.

Still waiting for your answers to questions A, B and C, BTW... ;)
 
Were the arrest warrants valid?

The warrants appear to have had major errors in both cases. In Weaver's the dates, in the Davidian's case pretty much everything.

Did LE go in planning to kill Weaver and Koresh?

In Weaver's case apparently so, since they shot both his son and dog without provocation. in the case of Koresh, if not then why was he not arrested on any of the multitude of times he traveled into town, alone?

Did Weaver and Koresh have an opportunity to surrender to lawful authority?

In the case of Weaver, no. In the case of Koresh, apparently not since, as has been noted, it appears the feds fired first.

Were Weaver and Koresh considered dangerous and possibly armed?

Yes, but a better question is, were they considered such rightfully so?

Did Weaver and Koresh in fact commit serious felonies?

No. Weaver MAY have sawed off a shotgun barrel less than a quarter of an inch too short. Depends on how you measure it...AND if it was actually Weaver's cut.

Why are you determined to condemn the government at all costs? You weren't on OJ's Jury were you?

For the first part, because the government consistently demonstrates itself to be corrupt, over reaching and incompetent. For the second, nice attempt at a red herring but it fails.

Is it due process to arrest a person(s) alleged to have committed a crime?

Yes. And it is due process to get the warrants dated correctly for the appropriate reasons and to arrest the suspect in the least confrontational fashion available. In the case of Koresh the feds failed miserably on all counts.

Please recomend your sources of information, I've watched what the History Channel and Discovery channel had on the subject.

Then you essentially know absolutely nothing, so why jump to the goobermints defense?

I prefere clever to cute.

Then try to achieve one or the other.
 
How much meth were the Davidians convicted of making?

Interesting you brought this up. The No More Wacos book mentioned earlier brought out the LE use of military equipment required a "drug nexis"...IOW, a need to believe that the BGs (in this case, the Davidians) were somehow mixed up in drugs. You'll remember that the feds ended up borrowing and modifying Army armor, and Mississippi National Guard (I think) Huey's equipped with the IR cameras.

Not that it's impossible, but the story that the feds fed the sheeple of the Davidians making meth, or whatever, to fund their weapons purchases in preparation for their Apolcolypse stretches credibility. These very religious people were cooking meth? C'mon. But the feds needed to make this case to be able to use the military equipment. So they did, and most of America didn't question them.
 
Just out of curiousity sake, why did the courts seal all trial documents and evidence of an event that was aired on all national medias daily during it's entire duration?
David Koresh was known to frquently go to town, so if an arrest warrant was issued for him why not intercept him in town or on his travel to/fro town (avoiding innocents if there was violence)?
Did not Randy Weaver have his bank accounts siezed, credit frozen because he refused to be an informer for the government which led up to him cutting the shotgun barrel, which he had refused to do before, because he needed money?
These and other accounts I have read which may or may not be true, but sheds alot of doubt on the offical stories that in themselves make people wonder.
 
The last book I read on Ruby Ridge, Every Knee Shall Bow, was surprisingly good. The author set out to prove his thesis that there was very little malice on either side, but that paranoia and foolishness on both sides made the situation worse. For example, after the feds shot Vicki Weaver and as she lay dead on the floor of the cabin, the Weavers inside were treated to federal negotiators calling to Vicki on bullhorns:
"Vicki! Vicki! Are the children hungry, Vicki? We just finished pancakes and sausage, Vicki! What did you cook your children?"

The feds, of course, probably did not know (or at least, they couldn't have been sure) that Vicki was dead or had even been hit (even if Horiuchi knew, I don't know when he reported it.) Sara Weaver, though, told of hearing the feds call her mother's name in a mocking tone and being absolutely convinced that the cabin would be assaulted or burned to the ground any moment. The Weavers were convinced that the taunts were meant to make it clear that no one would be allowed to come out alive.


In the same book, it is stated that no one but Weaver and the agent in the car really know what the agent asked Weaver to do, because they indicated the lengths by pointing to parts of the barrel and there is no video record, only audio. An impasse.


Mr. Telewinz:

Were the arrest warrants valid?
The warrants at Ruby Ridge were, yes. The ones at Waco are widely acknowledged fakes--they had some blank ones ready, apparently.
Did LE go in planning to kill Weaver and Koresh?
Hard to say. The fact that their actions even raise the question in any way, no matter how remote, is not a good sign.
I don't believe there was a plan to go in and kill people, but I do believe that the ATF deliberately provoked a gun battle. I don't think they were all that concerned about casualties, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. I believe they really, honestly thought they would overwhelm the Davidians in a massive show of force and nothing "too bad" would happen.
In the Weaver case, I believe Degan and the others honestly planned to do simple surveillance, at least at first. However, that is NOT what they actually did, so I could be wrong. The fact that they DID actually go onto Weaver's land in camo with submachine guns is not in dispute. The fact that they were willing to shoot the dog, and apparently Sammy Weaver and Kevin Harris, just to escape detection is also not in dispute.
Did Weaver and Koresh have an opportunity to surrender to lawful authority?
Koresh did not. That's sort of the point of all the discussion centering on why the BATF didn't just "take him when he was jogging." Koresh had had peaceful meetings with BATF agents on several occasions in the past, but he was not offered the chance to know about the warrants, much less surrender peacefully.
Weaver did not get the chance to surrender himself in the original case against him. As has been mentioned, he was sent an appearance notice with the wrong date and had a warrant sworn out for his arrest before anyone bothered to contact him or check the notice he'd been sent. I don't ascribe that to any malice on the part of the authorities, but it happened whether they intended it or not.
Were Weaver and Koresh considered dangerous and possibly armed?
Of course they were. That doesn't explain filling kids with lead, burning kids alive, shooting mothers holding babies in their arms (did the History Channel show the hotel napkin on which Horiuchi sketched his view through the cabin door, clearly showing an unarmed person behind the door at the moment he fired?)
Did Weaver and Koresh in fact commit serious felonies?
Weaver did not. If the government was absolutely right about his criminal activities, he didn't pay a $5 tax, and then he followed the instructions on a court appearance notice. BFD.
Koresh, apparently, may have committed statutory rape, but that's it. I've got a cousin who had sex with his girlfriend before he had the state's blessing, too. Koresh was certainly accused of very serious crimes, including child abuse, but not one of those accusations turned out to be true, which is kinda, sorta, important if you're going to use those felonies to justify burning people alive or shooting their children.
Is it due process to arrest a person(s) alleged to have committed a crime?
Absolutely, which is why that's what should have been done. Not placing wannabe ninjas on a man's property with no identification except masks and automatic rifles. Not some kind of wannabe D-day assault. Arrests.
 
This is sort of a bump...

Would anyone else like to discuss the account of D.K. going shooting with the Feds, and providing the ammo , a few days before the raid, knowing that they were out to get him?

Oh, and just how good/bad a guitarist was he?
 
Telewinz,

Re Ruby Ridge the answer is an absolute no. There was no valid arrest warrant for Sammie Weaver...shot in the back by a federal agent. There was, in fact, no invalid arrest warrant for Sammie Weaver.

There was no valid arrest warrant for Vickie Weaver...shot in the head by FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi. There was, in fact, no invalid arrest warrant for Vickie Weaver.

Sadly for your premise, Randy Weaver was found innocent of ALL charges. Therefore, exactly what felony did he commit?

The federal government also settled with him for three million dollars. If, as you maintain, the federal government was blameless, without peer, and above reproach...I wonder why it did so?

Oh, and get the feds to put Lon Horiuchi in front of a jury at the bar of justice. You'll see a fed in prison. So far federal judges keep barring the State of Idaho from prosecuting him. Give you one guess why.

Next straw man?
 
Whether or not the ATF planned on killing people at Waco will only be known by them. But they did plan on putting on a good show. It was coming up to budget time and lets face it the ATF are a useless bunch of thugs and it was looking like their funding was going to get a reduction. It was noted in the PBS review of Waco that the ATF took more blank VHS tapes with them than ammo (initially). They were going to pull of a commando type assault and play it for congress as a ploy for more money.
Obviously this idiotic idea was likely to increase the chances of people getting hurt. Instead of picking up Koresh while he was getting diapers at the quickie mart they decided to storm a compound full of well armed people with little love of the feds to start with.
The rest is history, unfortunately the ATF isn't.
 
What OBJECTIVE book is out there to research? The ones I have seen appear to have an anti-government slant. Why is any info from the History Channel or Discovery Channels invalid, they seemed unbiased to me.
 
I seem to have struck a nerve. How come?
Because you refuse to answer questions directed at you with anything other than non-related questions. Like:
Why is any info from the History Channel or Discovery Channels invalid, they seemed unbiased to me.

Just answer the question. What felony did Randy Weaver commit?

While you are at it, what felony did Sammie Weaver commit, and was that felony sufficient to warrant shooting him in the back?

Is it a felony to hold open a door for another person(s), and does that felony come with the penalty of being shot in the head?????
The feds, of course, probably did not know (or at least, they couldn't have been sure) that Vicki was dead or had even been hit (even if Horiuchi knew, I don't know when he reported it.)
It would have been nearly impossible for the JBT not to know she was hit. By the time Vicki was murdered, the HRT had set up state of the art surveilance equipment. At minimum, two Feds knew she was hit. The murderer, and the spotter. Anyone monitoring the surveilance equipment would also have known.

Did they know she was dead? Almost certainly. Fatally shoot a deer in the head some time. Tell me if you don't "know" it's dead. They knew.
Sara Weaver, though, told of hearing the feds call her mother's name in a mocking tone and being absolutely convinced that the cabin would be assaulted or burned to the ground any moment. The Weavers were convinced that the taunts were meant to make it clear that no one would be allowed to come out alive.
That is exactly why they did it.

They also knew that the President, and the rat-bastard so-called Americans that put him in office, couldn't have cared less if they spitted Randy's baby daughter and roasted her for lunch.

Randy did commit a horrible felony after all. Right telewinz?


:fire: :fire: :fire:
 
The FACTS from the "other side"

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORT ON INTERNAL REVIEW REGARDING THE RUBY RIDGE HOSTAGE SITUATION AND SHOOTINGS BY LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL

B. Significant Findings
"In October 1989, Randy Weaver sold illegal weapons to a BATF informant. When BATF agents later attempted to enlist Weaver as an informant in their investigation of the Aryan Nations, Weaver refused to cooperate. Seven months later, the government indicted Weaver for the illegal weapons sales. We have found no evidence to support the claim that BATF targeted Weaver because of his religious or political beliefs. Similarly, we found insufficient evidence to sustain the charge that Weaver was illegally entrapped into selling the weapons."

"From February 1991 through August 1992, the Marshals Service was involved in efforts to apprehend Weaver to stand trial for the weapons charges and for his failure to appear for trial. These efforts included gathering information about Weaver and developing a plan to arrest him. Based on information that it collected, the Marshals Service learned that for many years Weaver had made statements about his intent to violently confront federal law enforcement officials. As a result, the Marshals Service concluded that Weaver intended to resist violently governmental attempts to arrest him. Thereafter, the Marshals Service investigated and carefully considered alternatives that would enable it to arrest Weaver without endangering his family or law enforcement personnel. It concluded that an undercover operation would be the most prudent way to proceed."

"In August 1992, six marshals travelled to an area in northern Idaho known as Ruby Ridge to conduct surveillance of the Weaver residence in preparation for the undercover operation. During the surveillance mission, the Weaver dog discovered the marshals and began to bark. The marshals retreated with the dog, Harris, Randy Weaver and his son, Sammy Weaver, and other family members in pursuit. At an area knownas the "Y," a gun battle occurred in which Deputy Marshal Degan and Sammy Weaver were killed."

"With regard to the responsibility for the deaths that occurred at the Y, the marshals assert that Harris initiated the fire fight when he shot Deputy Marsha Degan while Weaver and Harris claim that the marshals fired the first shots. After a thorough review of all of the evidence made available to us, we have been unable to determine conclusively who fired the first shot during the exchange of gunfire. Although there is evidence that one of the marshals shot Sammy Weaver during the exchange of gunfire, we found no proof that the shooting of the boy was anything other than an accident. In fact, the evidence indicates that the marshals did not know that Sammy Weaver had been killed or wounded until his body was discovered by the FBI in a shed outside the Weaver cabin two days later. Nor did we discover any evidence indicating that the marshals attempted to cover up their roles in the incident or that they exaggerated the events to cause a more drastic FBI response than was appropriate."

"With regard to the two shots fired on August 22, we concluded that the first shot met the standard of "objective reasonableness" the Constitution requires for the legal use of deadly force but that the second shot did not satisfy that standard. It is our conclusion that the sniper/observer who took the second shot intended to shoot Kevin Harris but accidentally killed Vicki Weaver whom he did not see behind the curtained door."

Mistakes were made by both sides but I still maintain that the majority of the guilt remains with Weaver. There will always be paperback books written by persons of unknown credibility that cater to the anarchists.
 
1) Government incompetence and coverups are real.
2) Some folks will always martyrize kooks, fringe elements, and criminals.

Is it a tie?
 
Ruby Ridge

All things being equal, had Randy Weaver lived in Sarajevo, and Lon Horriuchi been a Serb Army Sniper, and everything else had happened just the exact same way, a majority of Americans would have called for and got
military action against the Serbs.

Just goes to show you one man's "hero" Federal sniper is another man's
"war criminal" It ain't the act boys it's the stage it's played on.

If you can justify Ruby Ridge, Sand Creek and Wounded Knee were probably good ideas in your mind. I spent 26 years telling my soldiers "there aint no right way to do a wrong thing". Still good advice, but then I guess the Feds don't need good advice, ethics don't much matter any more. Autlander
 
telewinz,

What OBJECTIVE book is out there to research?

Several have already been suggested in this thread. Ashes Of Waco and Every Knee Shall Bow are two pretty unbiased accounts.

Yes, we're all well aware of the Justice Department report. It's one of several you'd be able to find referenced in these books. If you'd like to see the viewpoint of the other side, there's Christopher Whitcombe's Cold Zero. He was an HRT sniper who was actually at both places.
 
Mistakes were made by both sides but I still maintain that the majority of the guilt remains with Weaver. There will always be paperback books written by persons of unknown credibility that cater to the anarchists.

Paperback books aside, the government has been unable to obtain convictions against Weaver or Harris...so what guilt?

So, you maintain that Weaver is responsible for US Marshals shooting Sammie Weaver in the back and Lon Horiuchi shooting Vickie Weaver in the head? He made them do it, right?

Seems like you skimmed right over this:
With regard to the two shots fired on August 22, we concluded that the first shot met the standard of "objective reasonableness" the Constitution requires for the legal use of deadly force but that the second shot did not satisfy that standard. It is our conclusion that the sniper/observer who took the second shot intended to shoot Kevin Harris but accidentally killed Vicki Weaver whom he did not see behind the curtained door."

The second shot was not justified according to the above. But that's OK, right? After all, it was an "accident." And "accidents" "happen." Right?
 
A few comments:

The shotgun Weaver shortened ended up with a barrel OVER 18" long. It was the OAL that didn't meet minimums, and we don't know who shortened the PG to put it under 25".

The warrant for the Davidian church is a public document. Read it. NOTHING listed in it is illegal for anyone to own.

There was a lot of news footage at Waco taken close-up before the feds made the news crews move back a quarter mile. It aired endlessly and is on tape. Watch it. The feds are blazing away, pulling triggers as fast as they can, firing from 30 feet at a wood frame house known to be filled with children. The feds are crouched behind vehicles in a dirt driveway/parking lot. NOT ONE VEHICLE gets a bullet hole in it or has starred glass. Not a single spout of dust/dirt appears from the ground. Get it? THERE IS NO RETURN FIRE. Later, we see feds climb though a 2nd story window, and immediately after, another fed tosses in a grenade (same window) and sprays the interior w/SMG fire. Most if not all fed casualties were friendly fire.

Additionally, whether Koresh claimed to be a messiah or was having sex with underage church members IS NOT A FEDERAL TAX MATTER. IIRC Father Bruce Ritter at Covenant House in NYC was found to be molesting young boys at his facility, BUT A FEDERAL TAX AGENCY DIDN'T SHOW UP THERE WITH A CATTLE TRAILER FULL OF TAX AGENTS ARMED WITH SMGs AND GRENADES AND START KILLING PEOPLE.

Last point: The claim that the OKC bombing happened because of Waco is imprecise. OKC happened because AFTER Waco, NO ONE was held accountable AT ALL. If Janet "I take full responsibility" Reno had been put on trial, been found guilty of manslaughter, sentenced to six months in prison, and served eight weeks but been disbarred and lost her gov't pension, it would have been enough to satisfy the millions of people who were stunned at the "We were in the right" stance that the gov't has maintained.

JR
 
Waco the other side..don't confuse you with the UNBIASED facts!

The Republican Congressional Report (on Waco) for 1996

"Senior officers of the Texas Rangers also testified as to the findings of their investigation into these events after April 19. The Rangers interviewed virtually everyone who was present at the Branch Davidian residence on February 28, including several of the surviving Davidians and all of the ATF agents who were present. As Texas Ranger Captain David Byrnes testified to the Subcommittees:"

"I believe the evidence was to me overwhelming in the trial that the Davidians fired first. The cameraman and the reporter, although very reluctant, finally I believe conceded that. He had broadcast that several times. He was more or less a hostile witness. But in my mind there is no doubt who fired first."

"The Subcommittees believe that the question of who fired the first shot on February 28th cannot decisively be resolved given the limited testimony presented to the Subcommittees. It appears more likely, however, that the Davidians fired first as the ATF agents began to enter the residence."

"It is clear that Koresh sexually abused minor females at the residence, in addition to having consensual sexual relations with several of the adult females who lived there. A number of former Davidians provided affidavits detailing these sexual relations, including the sexual abuse involving minors females. Joyce Sparks, an employee of the Texas Children's Protective Services agency provided the FBI with a report of an interview she conducted with a child who lived at the residence detailing an incident of sexual abuse. This child, Kiri Jewell, testified about her experience before the Subcommittees at the July hearings. Also, during conversation between FBI and Steve Schneider during the week of April 14, Schneider admitted that he knew of Koresh's sexual abuse of a minor female. While all of these incidents occurred prior to February 28, FBI behavioral expert Dr. Paul Dietz, in an April 17 memoranda to the FBI, opined that "Koresh may continue to make sexual use of any minor female children who remain inside."

"It also appears certain that Koresh employed severe physical punishments as a means of disciplining the children. A March 26 report of Dr. Bruce Perry, a - who interviewed the children who had been released from the residence during the stand-off, confirmed that Koresh physically abused children who had misbehaved."

"Analysis of the Issues Relating to the Fire."

"During the their testimony before the Subcommittees, the three fire experts stated their opinions as to the cause of the fire. They also discussed the several other theories as to the fire's origin which had been circulating in the media. Their testimony, coupled with the visual evidence provided by the FLIR and other videotape recordings made on April 19, conclusively prove that multiple fires began in different places inside the Branch Davidian residence and that they were deliberately set by the Davidians themselves."

"The methylene chloride in the CS riot control agent used by the FBI did not cause the fire."

"One of the theories forwarded to the Subcommittees concerning the origin of the fire is that methylene chloride, a chemical used as a dispersant to carry the CS riot control agent injected into the Branch Davidian residence, may have ignited and started the fire. During the hearings Dr. Quintiere testified that it was his opinion that the methylene chloride in the CS agent neither caused nor contributed to the spread of the fire."

"In light of this testimony, and the other information reviewed by the Subcommittees concerning the flammability of methylene chloride, the Subcommittees conclude that the presence of methylene chloride in the Branch Davidian residence did not cause the fire nor contribute to its spread."

"Some citizens have contacted the Subcommittees and forward to them copies of a video sold by an organization antagonistic to the government which attempts to explain many aspects of the government's actions at Waco, including the start of the fire. The makers of that videotape allege that the combat engineering vehicles used at Waco carried flame throwing devices which were used to intentionally set the fires inside the Branch Davidian residence. During the hearings, the fire experts were questioned about this theory."

"On another day of the hearings, a Defense Department witness testified that all of the military vehicles loaned by the Defense Department to the Department of Justice and used at Waco were unarmed. Additionally, the Subcommittees' interviews with other present at the Branch Davidian residence on April 19 confirms that none of these vehicles was armed."

"Given this fact, and the fact that had a flamethrower or similar device been installed on one of the CEVs its use would have been observable in the FLIR video, the Subcommittees conclude that the government did not use any of the military vehicles to intentionally set the fire. Additionally, as the evidence before the Subcommittees clearly demonstrate that no fire began near the time when any of the CEVs came in contact with the structure, the Subcommittees conclude that it is highly unlikely that the use of the CEVs inadvertently caused the fires to begin."

"The Davidians could have left their residence even after the fire began."

"Throughout the morning of April 19, none of the Davidians left their residence. After the fire broke out, however, nine persons left the building. This indicates that at least some opportunity existed for the Davidians to safely leave the structure had they wanted to do so. One of those who escaped the fire left the residence almost 21 minutes after the breakout of the first fire. Clearly, some means of escape from the residence existed for a significant period of time after the fire broke out."

"An important question, however, is whether the Davidians might have been overcome by smoke and prevented from leaving the residence. The autopsies of the Davidians indicate that deaths from smoke inhalation or asphyxiation from carbon monoxide poisoning accounted for only half of the Davidians who died in the residence. The other causes of death were gunshot wounds, burns, or other trauma. Thus, even after the fires began to consume the structure, at least half of the Davidians were not so affected by the smoke and fumes from the fire that they were physically unable to leave the structure."

"Additionally, the location of the bodies of the Davidians indicates that few of the Davidians actually attempted to escape the building. Many of the bodies were huddled together in locations in the center of the building. Few of the bodies were located at points of exit from the building, and the cause of death of several of the bodies at exit points were self-inflicted gunshot wounds or gunshots from very close range."

Again, the FACTS based on an independant, professional investigation and conclusions made by INFORMED responsible people paints a different picture than many posts on THR would have us believe. "Antagonistic to the government" naw, not here on THR:scrutiny:
Biased feelings are no match against the facts, the two are not interchangeable but often are to serve those with an ax to grind.:barf:
 
Ok guys, lots of anger over this one that is obvious.

From my side of the Atlantic these stories have only really reached me two ways. Waco, when it happened and nothing was clear about it. Since then South Park.

South Park? you say. Yes. They did an episode where the ATF got their addresses wrong and mistook a party that the kids parents were at, for a suicide cult. To quote the ATF man that Matt Stone and Trey Parker (libertarians I think btw) created:

"We aren't going to let these crazy cultists commit mass suicide even if we have to kill them all to do it."

That made me realise that there is something important and fundamental underlying these cases and the American publics reaction to them. I have an idea what it is (but not an American so not going to assume I am right) - someone care to put it concisely for me.

Tamara - would love to put those books on my reading list, how huge are they?
 
Biased feelings are no match against the facts, the two are not interchangeable but often are to serve those with an ax to grind.

That same report also has sworn testimony that there were no tear gas devices used that were capable of starting fires.

Only one problem with that sworn testimony...it was PROVEN to be a lie. Proven by finding the spent devices at the site. Strange thing...perjury is a crime. One which the agents giving that perjured testimony were never charged with. Wonder why?
 
"The Subcommittees believe that the question of who fired the first shot on February 28th cannot decisively be resolved given the limited testimony presented to the Subcommittees. It appears more likely, however, that the Davidians fired first as the ATF agents began to enter the residence."
And the key piece of evidence, the front door, mysteriously disappeared never to be seen again.
"The Davidians could have left their residence even after the fire began."
Therefore its their fault they were killed.
Again, the FACTS based on an independant, professional investigation and conclusions made by INFORMED responsible people paints a different picture than many posts on THR would have us believe.
Evidence disappears, no one is punished, leadership is promoted, "independent ivestigators" are establishment pubahs, and "scientific studies" are rigged. The comment "errors were made" just don't cut it when all the errors point in the same direction. I would have more faith in INFORMED investigations if there was a spread in the evidence and conclusions. I get really suspicious conclusions are completely onesided. 15 years ago a coverup of this magnitude would never have been challenged. Today, with the advent of alternative media makes it virtually impossible for government to slink away without accountability.
 
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