Can we be honest about what kind of accuracy you are getting from your AKs (esp WASR)

[ZombiesAhead]

I have put plenty of rounds through my GP-10 WASR AK-47-type rifle. I was basically minute-of-man accurate at 100 yards sitting on a rickety picnic table bench with a rickety 2 x 4 supporting the gun by the mag. I was less accurate standing using a steady-sling. I was using crap black post and notch iron sights.

I then acquired a Bushmaster AR-15 with Carbine-Length iron-sight radius. I can make 25/30 head-shots (actually head-sized stuffed animals) standing with a steady sling at 25 yards. I can follow up shots nearly immediately without having to completely re-acqure my sight picture.

I then added a PK-AS left-offset red-dot to the WASR hoping that it may just be the HORRIBLE iron sights on the AK that were throwing me off. I am now consistently minute-of-torso accurate at 100 yards but the recoil throws me off after each shot.

I use steel-case wolf in both the AR-15 and the WASR.

Why am I so bad with the AK?

a. The 7.62's recoil causing follow-up-shots to require completely re-acquiring the sight picture? I find this a serious problem causing more than twice the time in between shots as with an AR. If I don't take this time, I get sloppy and blow the follow-up.

b. The terrible iron sights and maybe a not-properly sighted in PK-AS side-mount optic? I had a guy at an indoor range tell me the red-dot seemed sighted in "good enough for an AK" (at 50 yards).

c. A bad WASR? Everything looks good to me. I don't understand what could be so horribly wrong. The rifling is correct. The problem occurs both with irons (potentially canted, but look good) and the red-dot.

d. Ergonomics? I find the lighter AR much easier to manipulate.

For an average to below-average shooter, do these results sound right? I am not a marksman nor an internet-marksman but I just can't believe the groups some claim to get with their WASR's...

I want to love the AK as I value reliablility in a SHTF gun over long-range accuracy but this seems like people on the internet may be blowing the AK's capabilities (due to many factors that come into play out-side of a vice rest) out of proportion. Honestly, I can't say that resting it on the mag or from a prone position I can do much better than 12 MOA consistently with several different batches of Wolf steel-case 7.62x39.

I am confident I can hit a torso in 1-2 shots with the AK at 100 yards. I haven't tried such accuracy with the AR but it feels so much more right. Is anyone else with me on this or am I just totally missing something in my marksmanship technique?

 

[Deus Machina]

For the recoil, treat yourself to a muzzle brake ($10+) and a recoil buffer ($5 to $25). I don't have a brake on mine yet, but a dirt-cheap recoil buffer actually changed mine to a straight-back shove, instead of jumping out of my (open) hand how it was. Brand new gun, too. Undersprung for the sake of reliability, i guess.

If you can borrow or want to buy one, I've had good luck with those laser bore sighters. Put it in snug, point it down the hall, adjust sights to match. Take it to the range for proper fine-tuning.

WASR's run the whole range on accuracy. Just about anything should be able to hit well enough at 100 yards. My own AK (a Saiga, but for reference) easily shoots 4- or 5-inch groups at 100 yards with cheap Wolf JHP and stock but painted sights, and I'm shooting sitting, holding the foregrip and resting my elbow on the table. Hardly as good as from a rest.

Note that having something sighted in 'good enough for an AK' at fifty yards will really hurt your accuracy at 100. Check that.

Work on your trigger pull and stance, too. As you've stated, AK's aren't as ergonomic as an AR, and that can cause someone to jerk the trigger, or pull it to the side if they're squeezing their whole hand. Working on that stuff is good even if it's not your problem.

 

[WardenWolf]

I can honestly say I'm getting around 2 MOA with my Saiga. However, a Saiga is a far higher quality AK than average. WASR's are okay. Not great. Not particularly bad, but okay.

 

[Guitargod1985]

I have a Romanian SAR-1 and a WASR-10 and both are capable of consistently hitting an 8" paper plate at 100 yards while in standing position. This is with irons, BTW. I'm sure it would improve with some sort of optic.

 

[LIQUID SNAKE]

Your WASR 10 is not an AK47 type. For that to be true your sample would have to have a milled receiver which is the only qualifier for the 47 series. You, my friend have an AKM type. The stamped sheet metal receiver is the trade mark of the M series.

Also in terms of accuracy my AKM hit everything I aimed it at. I just called it good.

 

[EdLaver]

I agree with Liquid Snake, the AK or any of its variants were never ment to be a tac-driver. As long as you can hit paper at 100 yards thats pretty much as good as it gets. Imagine this: If you are in a SHTF scenario and you have to defend yourself, a human torso is about the size of a normal paper target therefore it will hit at 100-150 yards. Now pushing past that you may have to compensate somehow but overall I can live with my WASR-10 knowing full well what its capable of and isnt.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=409217

Keep in mind, that is an 8" barrel AK. My experience with Romanian rifles has been good for the most part.

Make sure your sight rail for the scope is tight. Make sure you're using a good rest. Try differant ammo. Try shooting at a smaller, more well defined target. This may seem strange, but I find *group size* diminishes when you use a target with the same diameter as the aiming point of your reticule.

 

[LIQUID SNAKE]

Ya know, most people site the rifle's design for the inaccuracy myths. I've been wondering for years now about the accuracy of the 7.62x39 Soviet from better weapons. I've been wanting to build an AR15A3 20" bbl, full stock battle rifle for a while now. I wonder exactly how much better the accuracy and range would get in that package?

In case your wondering I'd feed it with 6.8 high cap mags not those garbage 5rd mags, ugly ass Frankenstein mags or, the make believe 20rd colts. I've also ruled out the AR47 receivers, "for now anyway".

 

[HB]

No offense but you should be able to easily drill 30 for 30 stuffed animals at 25 yards with almost any gun.... I would recomend getting a .22 and practice at close range.

But to answer your original question, the AK is not going to give you the same accuracy as the AR. The AK is a great desinge, a lot of fun to shoot, and looks cool, but it will not fill your requirements as a rifle. In a war.... Inside a hundred yards I'd take a AK over an AR, Inside 400 yards I'd take a AR, inside 800 I'd bring some friends


HB

 

[NC-Mike]

6 to 7 MOA with my WASR 10 and steel cased Wolf and Golden Tiger.

It do seem to like the GT more better.

 

[Pulse]

there are different ways of measuring accuracy.
someone telling you that his rifle of choice "shoots sub-moa all day long" without telling how he measured it has little worth on its own.

how was it measured?
was it a single 3 shot group at 100meters with 30min waiting in between shot to let the barrel cool and off a vice? possibly even cleaned the barrel in betwean each shot?
was it a average of 10 groups at 300 meters with 30 rounds each, each group fired in less then 2minutes with just half a minute in betwean groups and no barrel cleaning, shot offhand on a windy day?

ofcourse, those are both extream examples, but both are valid ways to measur the accuracy of a given platform, but only if you compare your results to someone that did the same or a comparable test.

 

[briansmithwins]

AKs can have problems that prevent them form seeing even 6MOA accuracy: loose parts, damaged crowns, and bad ammo can all take their toll.

However, this

I can make 25/30 head-shots (actually head-sized stuffed animals) standing with a steady sling at 25 yards.

makes it sound like you sometimes miss 8" targets at 25 yards with your AR. I wouldn't expect you to be able to get hits on a man sized target at 100 yards with anything if that's the case.

The 7.62's recoil causing follow-up-shots to require completely re-acquiring the sight picture? I find this a serious problem causing more than twice the time in between shots as with an AR. If I don't take this time, I get sloppy and blow the follow-up.

If that's the case it really sounds like you need more training.

red-dot seemed sighted in "good enough for an AK" (at 50 yards).

Weapons are either zeroed are they aren't. It's kinda like being pregnant. If your weapon isn't zeroed, how can you expect to get hits except by chance?

I suspect the fault is not in you equipment, but in you skills. Skills can be improved with time and effort.

1) Read some of the stuff here: http://warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111 For all that GS can be kinda flaky, he has some good ideas about how to run AKs.

2) Zero your rifle. Really zero your rifle. Start at 25 yards and work back to 100.

3) Shoot. Shoot some more. I DON'T MEAN BLAST STUFFED ANIMALS AT EXECUTION RANGE! Go to a class, go to a rifle match. Learn what works and what doesn't. You can go to a rifle match and learn w/o ever taking your rifle out of the case. Observe what the people that are smooth are doing. Do things more like what they do. Ask questions. Most guys at a match will talk like lonely old women if given half a chance.

I been shooting our local rifle match with my AK (and SKS) for the last year. In that year I've gotten a lot better and I'm starting to get happy with my performance. I have learned a lot in that year. BSW

Like most things, practice, practice, practice. You don't want to end up like this guy.

 

[Aka Zero]

I can shoot things with mine..... Haven't been shooting at any long ranges. Shot some rounds at pistol range. 20 yards. Wasr shot pretty good, saiga shot better.

I found painting the sights white help a lot. The thin black on black makes it very difficult to aim consistently.

But I can shoot my CZ-75 better at that range. 16 rounds into a 5" target.

 

[Nautilus]

Using the basic iron sights and shooting at 100 yards I can get about 6" groups with my WASR. Thats using Golden Tiger ammo, Wolf is about the same, but my best groups have always been with Golden tiger.

My "higher quality" AK's will shoot about the same, maybe slightly better than the WASR's but not much better... all shoot about 4" to 6" at 100 yards using steel case ammo and the basic iron sights. Using an Eotech and a quality mount I can close the groups a little more and switching to a quality brass cased ammo will close up the groups a little too, but it's not going to be as accurate as an AR.

Using quality US manufactured Brass cased ammo, an optic mount made in Belarus and a decent 3-9x scope I was able to get multiple 2" groups out of one of my romanians.

An AK is going to recoil more than an AR, not a lot you can do about it, it's a bigger round so it's going to kick a little more. It shouldn't be a problem for follow up shots if you practice enough... all things being equal an AK doesn't really kick much, the AR just doesn't kick at all.

I preffer an AK over an AR... but everyone is different. I think more people in a side to side comparison would prefer the AR. But I think the complaints you have listed above could be over come with a little more practice. I would not be quick to blame these issues on the rifle.

 

[db_tanker]

at 100 paces I can reliably defend myself versus evil coffee-cans with mine. Its not a WASR and its in 5.45x39.


Your mileage may vary.

D

 

[jackstinson]

Using the basic iron sights and shooting at 100 yards I can get about 6" groups with my WASR.

Same here. That would be with propping my left elbow on the bench, using my left hand as a "rest". Not bench rest, but not offhand either.
And as was also said, evil coffee-cans don't stand a chance at 100 yards.
After reading all the net-wisdom of how inaccurate a WASR should be, I was quite pleased with my GP10/63. Out of the box, it's windage was dead on and elevation was only slightly off. A fun shooter and probably more accurate than I can hold it to be.

 

[possum]

i have never measured group sizes at 200yds, but i can get 20 for 20 in the 5 zone of an e type shillouete, from any postion. i have a mak-90

 

[RP88]

at 30 yards, using a brass bucket as a makeshift bench, my converted Saiga in x39 leaves a bit more than a quarter's size worth of paper in between the 4-5 shot groups with Wolf FMJ. Guess that's equivilent to about 4 MoA at 100 yards.

I used winchester brass once, and got a couple groups that would translate to about 2 MoA.

All in all, I'd call mine a 2-3 MoA gun with decent ammo, but that may be pushing it. Maybe just a 3 MoA gun.

My Del-Ton AR outshoots the hell out of it though, that's for sure. I can put a whole box through (or very, very close to) the bullseye off of a bench at 30 yards with it.

 

[Clipper]

My WASR 10 (it's about 1 1/2 years old, so has the Tapco trigger and a chrome-lined barrel, no brake) sports a drag-type buttstock off a WASR II, Cheaper Than Dirt's $29.00 scope mount, eBay $10.00 NC Star steel rings, and a $39.00 BSA 3-9X50 scope with illuminated center dot crosshairs. Slow-fire from the bench with a CDNN 5-round mag, it shoots Wolf black-box HP into 1.5" @ 100 yards...Seems accurate enough to me.

Winchester SPs shot a foot high, and groups opened to 8". Go figure.

 

[Gord]

My stock Yugo underfolder will put thirty rounds into six square inches or so at ~120 yards. Haven't had a chance to take the Saiga out yet, but I'm expecting it to do about the same or slightly better.

I don't expect my AKs to tag headshots on squirrels, I expect them to reliably shoot minute of torso out to 250 yards or so. As long as they can do that, they've fulfilled their primary purpose.

 

[Mike U.]

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=33277

This should put things a little more on the realistic side.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I don't know about the WASR, but I do have a Century Yugo Underfolder with a Burris Scout Scope mounted to the railed fore end. It currently produces about 2 MOA on average with Brown Bear ammo. American hunting/match ammo will get even tighter. I love to see the look on peoples faces when I keep hitting the 400 yard steel target at the range. They just cant believe that an AK can do that.

I think the tales of "inaccurate" AK's come from one of 3 things... 1) landing yourself a piss poor build 2) using only the lousy stock sights 3) poorly trained guerrilla fighters using AK's

 

[30mag]

+1 for trigger jerking.
Shoot error of some sort probably. Shoot off a bench if you want to see how accurate the gun is...

 

[Kymasabe]

My Saiga AK is more accurate than my eyes. But, I can still keep all my rounds on an 8 or 9 inch paper plate at 100 yards with a nice tight sling as taught at Appleseed. I think one of the greatest weaknesses of the AK platform is the sights. I was getting much better accuracy a couple of years ago with my Bulgarian AK that had a Krebs rear peep sight and an orange front sight from Tapco. Once Techsights completes their rear sight design, I think it'll be even better.

 

[nwilliams]

My AK's are for fun not really accuracy. Most of the shooting I do with my AK's is 50 yards or less so the accuracy is just fine for me. If I want accuracy I probably would grab one of my AK's I have better options available. If I did however need an accuracte AK then I would probably grab my Norinco 84s since its a .223 as opposed to 7.62x39 but that brings up a whole other debate.