Quantcast

Can you shoot them all good?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by MarshallDodge, Jul 31, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,208
    Location:
    Utah, USA
    I see a lot of posts made by individuals that carry multiple types and styles of guns. For instance the "carry rotation" which include a J-frame, a 1911, and a Ruger LCP.

    This forum has provided me with a lot of good info over the years on defensive shooting. Things such as mindset, tactics, and training. There is the saying “Beware the man with one gun, he knows how to use it." I am finding that there is a lot of truth in this statement.

    For many years I was one of the people that purchased a new gun every year and would head to the range to become proficient with it. I primarily stayed with the same carry gun and the other guns would get traded off or took on the role of bedside gun, etc.

    One thing I realized when I started reading this forum is that I needed to spend less money buying guns and more money on ammo. Messing with all the different guns really muddied up my training time which reflected on my proficiency with all of them. If I shot any of these guns slow fire then I could make some nice little groups at 21 feet. The issue was when I turned up the speed, my performance really suffered.

    About a year and a half ago I decided to stay with one gun for one year. The results were not immediate but I started to notice a difference after six months which was about 10 trips to the range. More recent training sessions are showing that my decision is really paying off as I can almost walk up and shoot well without having to shake off the rust.
     
  2. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    34,964
    Location:
    Central PA
    We've had some interesting threads that touched on this question.

    Some general things I've come to believe:

    1) The more you practice shooting, the more competent you tend to be with guns in general. Evan a wide variety of guns. You can be competent with more than one style.
    2) The more you concentrate on practicing with ONE gun, the more you'll shift your competence toward proficiency and even mastery of that gun.
    3) The more you develop your skills, the higher your standards of competence, proficiency, and mastery will be -- and the less you're willing to accept mediocre performance with a weapon.
    4) The more you develop your skills with ONE gun, the more you notice the degradation of those skills when you shift abruptly to another style of gun.
    5) You can master one handgun, but can't shoot multiple different styles of handgun at that level of mastery at the same time. You can develop that level of mastery of another weapon, but it will take time and dedicated practice with that new weapon.

    I shoot one type of handgun in my practice and competition for a fairly long stretch of time. (Between 6 months and two years, generally.) At any point I can pick up another gun and shoot it competently. However, it takes a month or so of dedicated practice time (maybe a thousand rounds in weekly practices and monthly matches) to really get back to the level of proficiency or mastery at which I was operating before I switched from the previous gun.




    Definitions as I use the terms:
    a) Competence -- safe gun handling, ability to shoot confidently and accurately.
    b) Proficiency -- ability to shoot, reload, and generally "run" the gun without putting a lot of conscious thought into it.
    c) Mastery -- totally ingrained unconscious operation of the weapon. Mind is fully on the shooting problem, not on the manipulation of the gun.
     
  3. Dave P.

    Dave P. Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2011
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Michigan
    I find if I get a new gun it'll take maybe 600-800 rounds through it
    before I shoot it about as well as I can shoot. I only carry 2 guns,
    a Glock 36 or a LCP when the Glock is too big. Also own a Glock 19
    and 17 and notice all three Glocks take a few rounds to get back in
    tune with that particular gun.
    I think by shooting different "platforms" you learn to be a better shooter
    overall but at some point to be really good with a particular gun you
    really have to just shoot it for a while.
    Dave
     
  4. BCRider

    BCRider Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    7,832
    Location:
    Pacific North"Wet" Coast of Canada
    For simply standing and plinking I doubt if there's a huge difference. In that style of shooting/practice we simply are not focusing on pushing the time vs accuracy boundaries.

    But if you use your handguns in matches then I think sticking to one gun and one gear setup will soon see you cutting down your times and getting better accuracy all at the same time.

    It's not JUST the shooting, although that is certainly part of it. It's how clean and fast you can reach and draw from your typical carry setup that really sets this sort of focus apart from casual target shooting.

    I know that when I switched from semi to revolver for my IDPA practice and competition that I felt downright "glacial" at first. But with practice and more practice at ALL the skills related to drawing, shooting and reloading I got down to where my usual overall placement is now about half way down the overall times. And as the only revolver shooter that means I'm beating half the semi guys. But it sure would not have gotten there if I only shot the revolver now and then. It took a pretty good amount of focus on using that one gun and gear setup for much of the past year and a half. During that time I still shot a wide variety of other guns but not as much as I had in the past simply based on the revolver using more of my shooting time.

    There's no doubt that all this takes time and practice. And don't avoid the tricky stuff either. Practice your reloads under the clock
     
  5. mdauben

    mdauben Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2011
    Messages:
    2,400
    Location:
    Huntville, AL
    I generally tend to split my training pretty well between all my carry guns, so I don't think there is any "one gun" factor for me. I find that my best combat shooting is with my Glock 21. Some people find such a large gun unweildy and the greater recoil than smaller calibers but for me its just comfortable and accurate in my hand. More so than any .380, .38 or 9mm I have owned or tried.

    Unfortunaly, I mostly carry the big .45ACP Glock in winter when I can wear larger and bulkier cover garments.
     
  6. Ankeny

    Ankeny Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,131
    Not necessarily true given the appropriate resources and dedication.
     
  7. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,168
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana
    I'm pretty sure that's why Sam1911 stated that his list was "general" in nature. There will be exceptions.

     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    34,964
    Location:
    Central PA
    Actually, I say that it IS true, but neither Ankeny nor I can prove our hypotheses. :) They are fundamentally unprovable.

    If you have infinite time and infinite ammo are you better off spending all of that infinite time and ammo on one gun or, since it's infinite you know, does that mean you could actually be perfectly skilled (whatever that might mean) with every firearm at the same time? It's like that question about how many licks to get to to Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop: The world will never know.

    On planet Earth, and given the limitations of time and resources, one person cannot be skilled to the ultimate level he's humanly capable of attaining with multiple firearms. (Heck, no one person has ever attained the ultimate level they'd be potentially capable of with ONE gun, or any other tool.)

    If you are perfectly equally skilled with multiple guns, you could be BETTER with one of them if you dedicated yourself to it instead of diluting your efforts.
     
  9. David E

    David E Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,455
    It depends on the gun.

    Show me someone that can shoot his LCP .380 just as well as he can shoot his Glock 17 and I'll show you someone that can't shoot a Glock 17 very well.
     
  10. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    34,964
    Location:
    Central PA
    The easy (too easy) response is to set some arbitrary measure by which you sustain that you are "perfectly" or "sufficiently" skilled with one gun. Perhaps that's as simple as saying I can draw and clear the Mozambique drill in one second flat. Well, if I can do that with every handgun I'm given, then I'm equally skilled with all, right?

    Except that you would, of course, shoot that drill a hair faster with the Glock than you did with the 1911, or vice versa. And then you've got to push even harder to get all to equal footing again. And then, since you're pushing harder with the 1911 to catch up to the Glock (or whatever) then you're essentially neglecting developing your skill with the Glock while you improve the 1911...perhaps "dumbing down" your skill to try to be even across all guns. Which would sustain my point exactly. And if you spent all this time just concentrating on the Glock to begin with, how much faster would you be?

    "I don't know, ask Mr. Owl"

     
  11. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,708
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    Oh yea...

    I have practice versions of both my Glock sub-compacts and J frames.
    I have .22 practice versions of both my Glock sub-compacts and J frames.
    I have dummy gun practice versions of both my Glock sub-compacts and J frames.
    I have laser 'airsoft' dummy practice gun for my Glock sub-compacts.

    I shoot IDPA with my practice guns.
    I shot right handed and left handed with both of them (but not at the same time!)

    So yea, I can shoot both of them quite well.

    Deaf
     
  12. Dave P.

    Dave P. Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2011
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Michigan
    OK Deaf,
    Lots of money is on the line or maybe your life.
    Are you telling us you won't care which gun you grab?
    Dave
     
  13. bdickens

    bdickens Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,085
    Location:
    Hockley , TX
    Ha! One advantage to being so poor I can't even pay attention is that I don't have to make the choice because it is already made for me. :neener:
     
  14. Ankeny

    Ankeny Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2003
    Messages:
    2,131
    Using this definition of mastery:

    That being the case, it is possible to "master" multiple platforms at one time. Of course I have some guns that I shoot better than others. However, like many shooters, I can drive several platforms very well per the given definition of "mastery".

    Hope that clears up where I am coming from.
     
  15. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,404
    Location:
    nc mountains
    Mastery !! Na never will go that far but I do not mix handgun designs. I will CC from 3 different handguns but all are kahrs of different size. Same trigger pull, grip, feel . nothing new to learn. I enjoy several other handgun type but allways finish the day with my carry handgun to get the feel back along with my head.
     
  16. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,208
    Location:
    Utah, USA
    99% of the time I carry a gun with a double action only trigger and if I have to go small then I carry my Kahr E9 which has a very similar trigger. I still cannot shoot the Kahr as well as the full size gun but at least the controls are very similar.
     
  17. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,168
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana
    Actually, it's easily provable.

    All you have to do is define "master".

    We'll use your own example:

    Now we know what it takes to master a handgun. Let's say you can shoot a Mozambique in .934 seconds with your Glock, .812 seconds with your 1911, .673 seconds with your S&W J frame, and 1.245 seconds with your HK.

    By your definition, you've mastered the Glock, 1911, and J-Frame, but still need some work with the HK.

    Organizations such as IDPA and USPSA set standards to be classified as a "Master". There are many individuals who have mastered multiple types of handguns, and regularly shoot them in the same competitions in different classes.
     
  18. zeke4351

    zeke4351 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    59
    Some people can shoot anything they pick up. I have always been able to shoot any handgun good or any gun as far as that goes after just a few rounds. I was raised around guns and shot a lot all my life. I am now 62. I would say for the newer shooter who has only owned a gun for a few years they would be better off sticking to one gun. There are lots of new shooters out there that have become over night experts in their mind. It really worries me about some of the statements that get made on a lot of the gun forums by some self proclaimed experts. Bullet set back, press checking,over penetration is all BS used in discussions by the greenhorns.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  19. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    34,964
    Location:
    Central PA
    Ok, 45_auto, that's certainly true, IF you're using the term "Master" as a noun, not a verb. You've become a master of that weapon based on an arbitrary measure. You have not reached any real personal pinnacle with that weapon, just surpassed a milestone set by someone else (or even yourself).

    If you're satisfied with that, then surely you can be A master with multiple weapons.

    My point was less limited, and I think, more to the point of the OP. Can you shoot multiple guns at the top level you could be able, or does the exercise with multiple guns detract from what you could accomplish with ONE gun?

    That question remains (and I think, must remain) eternally unanswered.
     
  20. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    34,964
    Location:
    Central PA
    Uhhh...oh kay. That's an interesting point of view.

    Sounds like you're a pretty competent shooter. Sometimes it is good to be satisfied with who you are and where you're at, I guess.
     
  21. mavracer

    mavracer Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,958
    Location:
    wichita
    That or he's amazing with a LCP.

    But seriously by Sam's definition to me since they have very similar MOA it would seam that if a guy could operate a Glock without conscious thought it would be easy to transition to something that has a very similar MOA without having to focus on manipulating the gun.
     
  22. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,708
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    It's not about caring. It's about having what you have at that moment.

    When I practice I presume any opponent will have a better gun than me (and when I practice H2H I presume any opponent will be bigger than me!)

    Yes my Glock is easier to shoot than my snub but the snub is more likely to be there than the Glock.

    See Texas summers are real hot and wearing a coat is kind of, well stupid.

    So I know I have to shoot fast and strait with either one.

    I am just lucky over the years I have accumulated all I need to do the kind of practicing necessary.

    Deaf
     
  23. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,404
    Location:
    nc mountains
    With some smaller handguns bullet setback is very real if the handgun does not really like the ammo. Kahrs handguns have very strong recoil spring that can very easily push a bullet back with a couple try's so pay attention to your loads.

    If anyone thinks somecan't shoot large and small guns well better watch hickok45's videos. That guy has paws, not hands . he also will shoot some micro pistols with the middle pad of a finger and still be a fine shooter.
     
  24. Piratesailor

    Piratesailor Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Houston
    I shoot all my guns to stay proficient but I practice more and harder with the one I carry every day. I don't rotate guns.
     
  25. TestPilot

    TestPilot Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Messages:
    976
    It is quite simple.

    Can a person attain a certain performace goal with most pistols? Yes.

    Will a person achieve the same maximum efficiency with all pistols? Highly improbable.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice