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Cap and ball concealed carry?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by troy fairweather, Mar 13, 2020.

  1. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    From a 2009 thread:
    French bar owner shoots dead armed robber with a BP revolver

    It was in the news this morning.

    A French Bar / Tabac owner has been placed in custody after killing an armed robber Friday night in the town of Flaviac, France.
    The robbers were 3 in total and one of them was armed with an axe.

    The owner took a black powder revolver from under his desk and first fired a warning shot towards the ceiling, which infuriated the armed robber who started to bash everything around with his axe. The owner then fired a second time, lethally wounding the aggressor in the chest.
    The Gendarmerie has been given the investigation to determine whether this was a case of self-defense or not.

    Post #10:

    OK, the criminal was shot in the region of the heart, but didn't die instantly, the 2 other bad guys took him with them. They went to a doctor in another departement (equivalent of a "county") who was unable to do anything but noticing the death of the wounded.
    They were later arrested by the police.

    Post #19:

    GREAT NEWS everybody.

    The bar owner has just been certified as being in a state of legitimate self-defense. --->>> https://thehighroad.org/index.php?t...-dead-armed-robber-with-a-bp-revolver.422875/
     
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  2. whughett

    whughett Member

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    TF
    Sheesh, I take it you didn’t shoot that pattern on that pizza box where it now sits. :rofl:
    I do like NMA’s have two, well one is a NMN actually, but two darn big to carry.
    Can’t say why but I can shoot better groups with almost any of my many cap guns than any of my metallics. The balance and grips I think.
     
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  3. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    Lol ya that Hyundai was like 3 days old when I took that. Be never really had any trouble shooting c&b 's
    My uberti is comfortable in my hand, plus it came with a fantastic trigger under 3lbs and no creep.

    In the early 2000s with all the 911 stuff going on ny was about to change the law for black powder pistols, they wanted people to be able to protect there selves. Even NYC Mayer was for it. Then a week or so before the vote, the first person in 75 years in N.Y. Was killed with a bp pistol.

    If one need a more power there's always the colt walker lol.
     
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  4. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    In reality, if 6 rounds hasn't decided the issue then you are probably already dead or incapacitated.
     
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  5. whughett

    whughett Member

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    Most likely. Hope I never have to find out.
     
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  6. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Its a common misconception that c&b revolvers are slower to load than metallic cartridge guns but they actually arent if you learn to make and use paper cartridges. I can load my revolvers with a paper cartridge and shoot and reload faster than i can with a metallic cartridge single action. I just ram my paper cartridges in and use a capper to cap the nipples, shoot, then reload. It helps cut reload time as i dont have to remove empty casings as i would with a metalic cartridge revolver. I can also change out a and empty cylinder with a preloaded cylinder very fast on a colt. Its only a long process if you make it long, although making paper cartridges does take up some time but i enjoy the "art" ...and its kind of therapeutic. But time is also taken if you reload your brass...so technically you can say its just as time consuming.
     
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  7. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    Just don't drop it. :uhoh:
     
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  8. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    Ya, I have had luck on that. When I was 15 I dropped a loaded ruger 10/22 mag, bullet went 1/2'' into my leg.
     
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  9. whughett

    whughett Member

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    Ever run head to head on someone doing that. Your cap and ball against a Colt SAA. I’m somewhat skeptical. Would make an interesting YouTube video.
     
  10. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Yes. As a matter of fact i have. Although it wasnt me against myself and we werent racing..we were just seeing if it was just as easy and fast considering paper cartridges were being used. Anyone who loads paper cartridges and uses a good capper and has gotten a good rhythm and technique down knows it can be done fast. I also set up my guns so that i can push out the wedge without the use of tools...so taking the barrel off and replacing a loaded cylinder is done pretty fast and with ease.
     
  11. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    This agrees with what else we see such as Mr Beliveau’s video of performance with powders, projectiles, and barrel lengths using the Ruger Old Army. His 15% reduction loads seems to come close to near max loads in the NMA and 1860 so it could be assumed you’d ballpark the expected performance. I estimate my NMA with a 195 grn bullet I’m getting somewhere between 350-425 ft/lbs. And with that bullet my ROA is likely around 400-525 ft/lbs.



    He shows a 30 grn charge and a 225 grn Lee (I believe this weighs 220 just as with the ball I believe weighs 144) is 881 FPS and 388 ft/lbs, and the heavier 255 grn and 25 grns launching at the same speed and getting 440 ft/lbs. Friction and weight can create more pressures so one should be cautious with bearing surface lengths, weights, energetic powders, and chamber wall thickness. A modification I want to make to my design is to widen the line groove to take away from the bearing surface length as I may be pushing the envelope on what it can handle indefinitely.


    What I have found seems to be true with both my ROA and NMA is that regardless of projectile the more accurate powder charge didn’t seem to change. This was 30 grns (weighed 33) in my NMA and 35 (weighed 38) in my ROA. I created a custom mold with the designs to try. Someone took note of the Lee 160 grn FN bullet and how it seemed short for caliber. So I created one that’s 0.460” and with a wide meplat for making a big hole assuming my new (2013) Pietta Remington had the slow twist 1:30 barrel, and one to be shorter. One weighs 195 grns and the other 170. I found it has a faster 1:16” twist so it can handle more bullet, and as I don’t use fillers I figured I’d fill the void with more lead. What was observed by a fellow loading wide bullets was that if they were flush or nearly so to the chamber mouth would gas cut the bullet noses. I’ll have to reread his threads but let’s assume it was close to 1/16”. I intend to leave space for a 1/16” cardboard disk and maybe a 1/16” for variants of powder throws. I’m considering making it universal, but then I have considered deepening the chambers or buying a ClassicBallistix cylinder that states adds 5-10 grns, which might put my Ruger in Colt Dragoon territory!

    That same fellow has also been experimenting with HP bullets, which I find a bit intriguing. These arms are hunting weapons. A WFN solid is ideal for things like pigs. But a deer or man doesn’t usually need that much penetration so a HP might be better. I’m thinking of doing this with my NMA as I can buy an additional rammer assembly to create a HP cavity to protect the nose when loading. I’m thinking the first 3 being HPs followed by the solids. For one more concerned about home protection would just load HPs I suppose.
     
  12. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    To put it in perspective just consider the .45 Colt and .45 Schofield. What began with a 255 grn bullet propelled by 40 grns of powder (what granulation though as they had been buying Hazard’s paper cartridges in the percussion guns and that was 4F and potent like Swiss?) was neutered to 35, and then I’m a little uncertain but I think they dropped to the 230 grn Schofield bullet and the 30 and then 28 grn charge for the military. Clearly even just 28 grns and a 230 grn bullet was felt to be sufficient, and is that not the load the original .45 ACP was designed to replicate? It produced something like 350-380 ft/lbs, no? Even the .44 Spl was considered pretty good. Think of the .44-40 WCF!
     
  13. jeepnik

    jeepnik Member

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    Look at it this way. If you're close enough you get the benefit of lighting them on fire. Or if you're further back, you can drift away in the smoke screen after you fire your six.
     
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  14. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Smokescreens proved very effective in the WWII Battle Off Samar Island.
     
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  15. merwin

    merwin Member

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    As a convicted felon, G. Gordon Liddy carried a C&B revolver for years while heading a high-end/high-risk hands-on protection firm. YouTube has a big collection ;of film clips of C&B stubbies in use of concealed carry. A WORD ABOUT SHORT BARRELS: Barrels of 2 inches or less perform minimally. Gun writers in every decade since the 60s have clearly demonstrated that off-the-shelf ammo from a snubby Ciefs Special would not penetrate automobile window glass from 20 feet away (experiment run in "Guns" magazine in the learly 60s). Four inches will put your man down; five is better. Go figure, sometimes size matters -
     
  16. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    Interesting discussion. The COVID situation has placed my privilege to legally carry a modern handgun in danger of expiration*, which prompted me to pull my Ruger Old Army from the safe, and consider whether I would want to carry such a beast. (I have yet to get around to buying a holster for it, and an internet search has shown that nice rigs are quite difficult to find, but something could probably be sorted-out.) It might be easier to sling a tripod bag over my shoulder, and tote a short-ish long gun, such as a pistol-grip-only shotgun. (Since my pumping arm/shoulder has not aged well, I switched to M2 Benellis, for firing from the shoulder, so put a Pachmayr Vindicator rubber grip on my former duty Remington 870P. I can still pump effectively, if the whole weapon is held a bit closer to my body, than the usual shouldered position.)

    Back to the original subject, I became really interested in shooting single-action sixguns, in the late Nineties, so know what I can do, with one. I fired only one defensive shot, during a police patrol career, that started in early 1984, and finished in early 2018. I either investigated, or worked scene security, at plenty of crime scenes, during that time. So, I know that the need to reload a handgun is an extremely rare event, even for big-city street patrol officers. So, yes, a cap-and-ball sixgun would probably suffice to scrape-off one or two close-range attackers.

    So, put me into the “maybe” category, for willingness to carry a pre-cartridge type of firearm, for defense. Knowing that black powder, and the BP substitutes, absorb water from the air, I would make sure to keep everything very well-sealed, and preferably, loaded very recently.

    Yes, indeed, I am already kicking myself, for not having already gotten a normal private-citizen Texas License To Carry A Handgun, which can be renewed on-line, without having to shoot a qual. This was one of those things I had “been meaning to do,” for a while. My wife does have her carry license, so, we are not without effective weaponry, if we are together.

    *I did find one place to shoot an LEOSA handgun qual, but as it starts at 0745, and is several hours’ drive, each way, it involves an overnight trip. My wife is in the ultra-vulnerable category, if she is exposed to COVID-19, so we would be minimizing trips, even if stay-at-home orders were not in effect.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  17. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    My dad had a nice holster for his old army, guess it would be a shoulder holster, it was pretty easy to get to fast. He would ware button up shirts and could reach and pull it out. Next time I talk to him I'll ask if he remembers who made it.
     
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  18. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    Thanks.

    El Paso Saddlery and Simply Rugged come to mind. I sure there are several more.
     
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  19. dickydalton

    dickydalton Member

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  20. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    I was looking for a good, plain utilitarian holster for hunting, and didn’t want to spend much. Going through a vendor who sold (pretty sure it was them) Oklahoma Leather (name?) and found a slim Jim designer for the 1860 Army/NMA and placed my Ruger in a plastic bag and wetter the leather for maybe a week to stretch it. Worked beautifully as it’s a nice tight form fit that holds the pistol quit firmly. I have to shack it in downward force pretty hard to get it to slide out, yet it’s not difficult to draw. And being designed for the 8” barrel it protects the end of mine.
     
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  21. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    So, you want to carry it unloaded?

    Kevin
     
  22. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    Only if you have it on a pistol permit, other wise you can't own anything to load it.
     
  23. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    The “reputation” of the 45 long Colt was earned with the 45 S&W loading. There were two reasons the initial 40 grain load was dropped. First was the fact that the 40 grain charge was bursting the Cokt cylinders!! Second, the troopers of the day complained of the recoil. So it was dropped. Than the S&W revolver was modified by Major Schofield and adopted by the Army as a secondary arm. Because it used a shorter cartridge the were initially mix ups in the supply chain. This was solved by only utilizing one cartridge length for both firearms. A good solution.

    If you duplicate the 45 S&W you have a good cartridge.

    Kevin
     
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  24. John Joseph

    John Joseph Member

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    With as squirrely as CA gun laws are, before too long cap and ball revolvers are all we may be permitted by our Sacramento overlords.
    Of coursethe lead balls will be illegal to shoot:uhoh:
     
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  25. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    Cast zinc round balls.

    Kevin
     
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