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Capacity Home Defense Shotgun

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by JCooperfan1911, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. Shivahasagun

    Shivahasagun Member

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    Another way to safely store a pump shotgun is with a shell half-chambered.

    Chamber it, load the tube, press the unlock button and back the slide / bolt back part way.

    The hammer is cocked but the bolt position makes firing impossible I'd the gun were to fall or fall over. But the simple act of picking it up and closing it that last inch to inch and a half makes it ready to fire.

    870's / 500 / 590's are NOT drop safe even with the trigger safety engaged for those who dont know. Neither are AR15's, Mini 14's, M1A's or most other rifles.
     
  2. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Easy to find if search for multiple attackers, go for it. Basically, I don't care if folks want to argue for minimal capacity guns. Single barrel shotguns, 5 shot BP revolvers - again go for it. It's a wonderful set of support for Uncle Joe and all the magazine capacity banners! See gun aficionados agree you don't need higher capacity weapons! Ban them!! Yes, indeed!
     
  3. Shivahasagun

    Shivahasagun Member

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    I prefer 12 ga because it should be enough capacity and a well-placed torso hit with buckshot is more likely to drop a BG faster than a well placed torso shot from a 5.56.

    Also if my aim is off a little the 1 to 6 inch cluster of pellets is still more likely to get faster results then a slightly off hit from a 5.56 round.

    Yes I'm familiar with the armor issue. Cheap plate steel is the most common. It stops shotgun and rifle rounds, generally.

    Unless its multiple armed home invaders willing to press a fight even as their buddies get shot a shotgun will do without a reload if the user knows what to do.

    Just my opinion. I have the rifles too and have changed my mind before. :)
     
  4. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Would you bet your life on "should be"?
    "...to 6 inch" is stretching it at in-the-home ranges, and "still more likely" is extremely optimistic with targets moving at 180 inches per second. More importantly, the rifle is much quicker for subsequent shots.
     
    Buzznrose likes this.
  5. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Folks do miss with shotguns at close range. Try a competition where you have multiple targets (oh, that never happens in real life - LOL) and you shoot on the move. See a run with a carbine vs. a shotgun on such multiple targets.
     
  6. Shivahasagun

    Shivahasagun Member

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    I've done it myself.

    Still confident a small number 12 ga shells will be plenty for HD.

    Defense against armed commies in the street is definitely rifle work.

    Due to my range I can easily train the way I need to with a shotgun & handgun. (Moving and shooting) Training that way with a rifle is more difficult for me. So its additional that I'd rather use the weapon I train with much more often.

    I've never seen a story where a person ran a shotgun dry during an HD event and suffered for it and I've been following this stuff for decades.
     
  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That has been demonstrated in numerous exercises, particularly those involving novices, and the superiority of the semiautomatic carbine, again for the inexperienced, has been made abundantly clear.

    Such results illustrate why "all you have to do is point a shotgun, you can't miss" is a myth for the naive.
     
  8. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Is defense against armed fascists in the street shotgun definitely work?

    As far as assuming the average will always happen for you, that's your choice. There will always be one opponent and you will never miss. Worrying about extreme cases is silly. Thus, Shotgun Joe got it nailed. No reason not to ban higher cap guns!!
     
  9. Seedy Character

    Seedy Character Member

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    870 12ga with 8+1. Why? That is how it was when I acquired it.
    Loaded alternating 1 1/5 oz #5s and #4buckshot. Sleeve of 5 back-up rounds.

    Wif has Coach gun and a box of 25 rounds, high velocity #5s.
    Shelter in place, between bed and wall, cover door.
    2 barrels pointed at door, 14' away. Hallway approaching door. More than 1 invader, those behind cannot shelter to either side.

    Beside bed;
    1911 8+1 with 3 back-up mags, 24 rounds.

    M4 with 3 mags, 90 rounds.

    2 80# bulldogs can clear the house and wait for the meat wagon.

    Not overtly worried about a home invasion, but prepared.
     
  10. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    OK:

    1. Why stagger rounds? I never have seen a recommendation from shotgun experts to do such. In fact, it is strongly said not to do so.

    2. Why limit your wife to a low capacity gun? In a dynamic fight, the box of shells is a rather slow reload.

    You have good handguns and a carbine, go for them first. Get the wife up to speed with the equivalent. I don't see what the shotgun setup adds to the plan.
     
  11. Seedy Character

    Seedy Character Member

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    1. Had 6 rounds of 5s, needed to load more.
    Cleaned gun and grabbed the 3 buckshot.
    Loaded them in no particular order.

    2.It is the one she likes. Not limited at all. Down behind bed, with 2 very fast 12ga shots and 9 .45s, from SxS and 1911 in front of her. She shoots both, extremely well. Doesn't care for M4 or 870.

    In a dynamic fight, 2 blast from 12ga will take out the hallway. Any others will not know it is a SxS. No "intimidating rack of slide" to alert to position. Majority of home invasions are 1-2 perps; if more, they will most likely not be interested in walking down a narrow hall.
    A "slow reload" is also a quiet one and a 1911 with 9 fast shots and 25 total is there.

    Besides, Chief Pedo claims SxS is what is needed.

    Shotgun adds nothing to your plan.
    Our plan is shelter in place (her, definitely) and armed with most effective guns she is comfortable with. (familiar with all, but not going to train beyond remaining familiar with what she feels is adequate. That is not going to change, unless something happens. Sarah Conner syndrome.)
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    More shotgun mythology.
     
  13. Seedy Character

    Seedy Character Member

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    Patterned

    Bed to door is 14 ft, another 18 ft of hall.

    You are more than welcome to come down the hallway, in the dark, facing 2 bulldogs and disprove the mythology.
     
  14. Blue Brick

    Blue Brick Member

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    HD only: Five is enough to keep me alive until the police arrive.
     
  15. Blue Brick

    Blue Brick Member

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  16. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    It was in stock at a local gunshop about 1979ish. I dont know if they're 3ven made anymore...
     
  17. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Filling a hallway with small, lower penetrating balls isn't a plan (if they actually fill hallway). Most shotgun tactics folks recommend something like Federal Flite Controlled 00 to have more penetrating power and a longer tighter pattern. Kleanbore had it correct.
     
  18. Seedy Character

    Seedy Character Member

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    Dr Red Duke, head trauma surgeon at Ben Taub Hospital in Galveston, known as the war zone; was asked by a room full of Hunter Education Instructions an out buckshot and HD.

    His response, " MYTH!
    1. Your pattern is 9 pellets
    2. You are not shooting 40 yards, not even 40 feet, most likely, 20 feet or less.
    3. 00 buckshot goes through walls
    4. A load of bird shot at 15 feet is about a 10 inch circle of 500+ pellets. At that range, they penetrate flesh very well. Even i can't sew up that many holes and repair that kind of trauma
    5. I treat gunshot wounds on a weekly basis and seen way too many.

    My shotgun is loaded with high velocity 5s. 4s or 6s is acceptable."
     
  19. Shivahasagun

    Shivahasagun Member

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    Flite Control cups just arent necessary when the likely use is under 30 feet. In fact a little spread is good at that range. (3 inch spread is better than a 1 inch spread)
     
    Seedy Character likes this.
  20. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    To each his own. I prefer to go with the advice of folks like Tom Givens, etc. Anyway, if it goes to a long arm, I'm going for the carbine, after shooting it vs. a shotgun in tactical exercises.
     
  21. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I'm not betting my life on that.

    You DO know they have no legal duty to arrive AT ALL?
     
    Seedy Character likes this.
  22. Seedy Character

    Seedy Character Member

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    True!!!!!


    Last month, we had a dope head OD in the middle of street. SMALL town (pop. 2500)
    Not a regular occurrence.
    Police Station is 6 blocks away. EMS is beside PD
    Called 911, requested PD & EMS

    EMS arrives 20 minutes later.
    PD arrived 6 minutes after EMS.

    ANY situation, I will not be expecting them to save me, just write up the after incident report.
     
    Deanimator likes this.
  23. tactikel

    tactikel Member

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    One consideration is weight/balance. Excessive weight forward will slow your mounting and swing. This may not be a big factor, but there is a price to pay for high counts rounds onboard.
    Bull pups and magazine fed shotguns can solve the problem of balance if they work for you.
     
  24. SOAB

    SOAB Member

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    Yes yes, we've all been made intimately aware of your preference of rifle vs shotgun at this point, thanks.

    I feel a lot of classes really push Flight Control, because a lot of students are often using their shotguns as tools for work. Flite Control is a very good innovation for pushing buckshot past that old standard of 25 yards or less. That can be a huge game changer when you are responding to an unknown situation at an unknown distance, and you may have to count on those pellets to make it that extra 10-15 yards for a consistent center of mass shot.

    At home defense distances though, the pattern can be a bit wider and still be of great effect. You have the ability to measure the distances you may have to shoot, and plan accordingly.

    Then it comes down to ammunition economy vs effectiveness. Right now, though very good, Federal Flite Control ammo is rare and very expensive when you find it. The average shooter may be able to find standard buckshot that patterns well(pattern your shotguns kids) for them, a lot more consistently and at better prices. You know what that means for that shooter?

    More defense ammo to train with. More defense ammo to run through their particular gun to ensure reliability. Training and understanding your defense firearm/ammunition is king. Can you do that with Flite Control? Absolutely! But IMHO it's just not realistic for the average shooter, especially right now.


    As for the age old debate on birdshot vs buckshot for home defense, well... I wouldn't ever recommend birdshot for home defense use. Even with heavier shot, there's just not enough penetration to consistently make it to areas that guarantee a quick and reliable stop.

    I have seen a lot of mortician photos while looking into ammo effectiveness, and I can safely say that more often than not, photos that involve birdshot are contact wounds. There are quite a few hospital photos of patients that are still alive, but have awful looking wounds. If they had been a determined attacker, they could have kept up with the attack, and that's NOT a good thing. When I choose ammo for my defensive guns, I want to make sure it's going to stop the attack as effectively as possible, determined attacker or not.

    Like I mentioned before, ammo capacity wise, I feel it's best to have more than less, but our situations differ person to person. I'd still prefer 6 rounds of buckshot versus 10-12 rounds of birdshot any day.

    ~ Leo
     
    kudu and SwampWolf like this.
  25. a_canadian

    a_canadian Member

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    Not sure if serious. You are imagining that after unleashing 2 blasts from a 12ga shotgun, people anywhere nearby are going to have sufficient remaining hearing such that they could potentially hear a pump shotgun slide slamming home? I've read a lot of incident reports and have yet to see one where a home invader was wearing earpro. Most defenders aren't either. A single pop from any shotgun is going to make hearing anything at all difficult for several minutes at least, for the shooter and for any nearby attackers.
     
    Jack Ryan likes this.
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