Capacity? Yes, please.

[.455_Hunter]

Good grief that’s the exact argument anti gunners use when pushing for capacity limits. I mean the odds say you’ll never need a gun. But you still carry?

Right. The odds say you don't every need a gun, but there are examples of people actually needing a gun every day. It's really not a debate.

That's a bit different than a scenario where many people fully prepare/train to avoid being undergunned in an extended violent encounter with multiple attackers, but actually being undergunned with consequential negative outcome has almost zero actual occurrences as a civilian carrier.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I drive a corvette because I can avoid anything and stop on a dime. And the chances of a roll over are WAY less than in a truck. I drive defensively with a high degree of alertness during daylight time only so I’ll never need the size and girth of a F550.

Got it- So you only drive in "good areas" in "good conditions".

 

[Kleanbore]

It is important to understand what is realistic and what is not based on what actually happens.

Nope.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Nope.

OK. Fantasy and imagination are the orders of the day, with nothing grounded by the assessment of actual events and their frequencies. Good to know.

 

[Hartkopf]

That's a bit different than a scenario where many people fully prepare/train to avoid being undergunned in an extended violent encounter with multiple attackers, but actually being undergunned with consequential negative outcome has almost zero actual occurrences as a civilian.

So with you it’s not what’s possible that matters, it’s hard data only?

I believe there’s too many variables and too much flawed data, or no data at all, to limit myself more than necessary.

I do agree with you that there are many other important factors when deciding what to carry.

 

[Hartkopf]

Got it- So you only drive in "good areas" in "good conditions".

Which proves my point. I don’t think I need the capacity of tonnage the F550 carries just like you don’t think you need the capacity of ammo the Glock 17 carries.

 

[.455_Hunter]

So with you it’s not what’s possible that matters, it’s hard data only?

It's pretty clear what we are discussing are such rare occurrences that "hard data" probably isn't realistic. I would be happy with just some anecdotes of real events that could be discussed.

It's kinda like being an executive/socialite/celebrity with an armored SUV and trained tactical drivers. Chances of needing it on a given day, or your whole life, are pretty much zero, but there are absolutely documented cases where it was vital to the individual's survival.

 

[Kleanbore]

Fantasy and imagination are the orders of the day,

Why in the world would anyone ever contend that something for which one cannot produce actual prior data should be characterized as "fantasy and imagination"?

The scientific process does not work that way.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Why in the world would anyone ever contend that something for which one cannot produce actual prior data should be characterized as "fantasy and imagination"?

The scientific process does not work that way.

If it is a discrete minor-scale event that a significant number of individuals believe to be enough of a risk to buy equipment, train and alter their lifestyles in order to be able to accommodate, one would think there would some examples to discuss, and perhaps even enough to study. We aren't talking about a global extinction SHTF or nuclear war event here, but something that supposedly could occur tonight when I go get dinner for my family in town.

 

[Hartkopf]

It's pretty clear what we are discussing are such rare occurrences that "hard data" probably isn't realistic. I would be happy with just some anecdotes of real events that could be discussed.

I look at the video in the OP or other similar videos and it is plausible for me to get caught up in a situation like that at my job. Unfortunately I’m not self employed living in the middle of nowhere. (wish I was) I believe it’s plausible for my family and I to be car jacked by multiple bad guys like in other videos I’ve seen in the past. With family members in the area, I will not break away. I’m there until the end. My point is that I look at similar videos and see that they are close enough to my reality that I want the highest capacity I can conceal. Like has been said, it’s a personal choice but I use the multiple variables as the reason for more capacity, not the lack of hard data as a reason to carry the average.

 

[DT Guy]

Cute, but off-topic.



So exactly how did this citizen's choice of defensive weapon play into his demise?

Did he put rounds on target that were ineffective due to small caliber and then get shot?

Did he empty his weapon and then get shot?

No one ever said that citizen never loose armed encounters. What we are trying to find is where the citizens weapon choice directly contributed to the loss of that encounter.

I notice you didn't address the second video, showing a determined carjacker in a full-fledged gunfight with responding law enforcement. It is your contention that if this criminal had been confront by an armed citizen he'd have given up more easily, or the ninja-like citizen would have needed fewer rounds to dispatch him than the police?

You wanted an example with 'hard data', but conveniently ignored the example I already offered. Let me post it again:

Explain how a citizen, encountering this fine fellow, would have been wise to carry a J-frame.

Larry

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I watched the video a few days ago.

For me, 16rds in the gun and a 15rd spare mag weakside.

Every. Single. Day.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I notice you didn't address the second video, showing a determined carjacker in a full-fledged gunfight with responding law enforcement. It is your contention that if this criminal had been confront by an armed citizen he'd have given up more easily, or the ninja-like citizen would have needed fewer rounds to dispatch him than the police?

You wanted an example with 'hard data', but conveniently ignored the example I already offered. Let me post it again:

Explain how a citizen, encountering this fine fellow, would have been wise to carry a J-frame.

Larry

Yeah- I didn't respond to it because the specific event wasn't applicable to the discussion. What does the conclusion of a police chase with shootout have anything to do with a civilian carrier? Do you chase down armed suspects as a citizen?

Now if you want to discuss what COULD have happened BEFORE the video, I guess that's another topic. Could the perp have killed an armed citizen in shootout? Sure.
Could the armed citizen, being mistaken for a pacifistic victim, landed one in perps conning tower with an immediate lights-out? Sure.

 

[.455_Hunter]

16rds in the gun and a 15rd spare mag.

Every. Day.

Outstanding if that is your choice and it fits your lifestyle. Its not "wrong" or "bad" to be in that camp.

 

[DT Guy]

.455 Hunter (earlier in the thread): "In any of those cases, did an armed citizen return fire and the perps continued to press the engagement?"

Yeah- I didn't respond to it because the specific event wasn't applicable to the discussion. What does the conclusion of a police chase with shootout have anything to do with a civilian carrier? Do you chase down armed suspects as a citizen?

Now if you want to discuss what COULD have happened BEFORE the video, I guess that's another topic. Could the perp have killed an armed citizen in shootout? Sure.
Could the armed citizen, being mistaken for a pacifistic victim, landed one in perps conning tower with an immediate lights-out? Sure.

So you'll discount the fact that a citizen confronted this person before the police completely? If you're simply not going to acknowledge reality, there's really no point in continuing to debate.

Larry

 

[.455_Hunter]

So you'll discount the fact that a citizen confronted this person before the police completely? If you're simply not going to acknowledge reality, there's really no point in continuing to debate.

Please indicate the point in the video where the perp was confronted and/or engaged by an armed citizen, or any mention of such an event by the newscasters?

... or are you just speculating what COULD have occured with an armed citizen?

 

[DT Guy]

Please indicate the point in the video where the perp was confronted and/or engaged by an armed citizen, or any mention of such an event by the newscasters?

... or are you just speculating what COULD have occured with an armed citizen?

It's obvious (well, to me) that the carjacker confronted a citizen (whom he carjacked) prior to the police chasing him. It seems reasonable to assume that, had the carjacker been armed he would have resisted at least as aggressively as he did with the police. Here's a determined attacker confronting police after confronting a citizen; sorry if that seems like too great a leap for you, but it seems utterly logical to me.

As an LEO, it was driven home to me that, as a primarily reactive force, we almost always encountered bad guys AFTER those bad guys had confronted citizens.

Larry

 

[plainsdrifter]

Personally I'm tired of carrying a box of ammo on my side, felt like an anvil.
Now with my Max 9 with 12 rounds - such a relief. An extra mag. No problem.
Two shots an ran out of ammo? Come on.

 

[.455_Hunter]

It's obvious (well, to me) that the carjacker confronted a citizen (whom he carjacked) prior to the police chasing him. It seems reasonable to assume that, had the carjacker been armed he would have resisted at least as aggressively as he did with the police. Here's a determined attacker confronting police after confronting a citizen; sorry if that seems like too great a leap for you, but it seems utterly logical to me.

As an LEO, it was driven home to me that, as a primarily reactive force, we almost always encountered bad guys AFTER those bad guys had confronted citizens.

Larry

But the problem is I asked for actual encounters with armed citizens where there was a negative outcome for the citizen due to weapon/caliber/capacity choices. I didn't ask for an example of an extremely violent criminal- we have plenty of those to chose from, or back stories with a mention of contact with an unarmed citizen.

Your first video was almost there as a valid example. The citizen was just out in public, not somebody manning the overnight counter at "U-SMOK-UM" (+1). It actually had multiple armed attackers (+2). It actually had the citizen engaging and being engaged by the attackers (+3). It had the citizen experiencing a negative outcome due to the event (fatally wounded)(+4). What it was lacking was evidence that the citizen's weapon choice contributed to the negative outcome. If I missed that evidence, please let me know. Does anybody know if Correia covered this Chicago shooting on ASP?

 

[DT Guy]

But the problem is I asked for actual encounters with armed citizens where there was a negative outcome for the citizen due to weapon/caliber/capacity choices. I didn't ask for an example of an extremely violent criminal- we have plenty of those to chose from, or back stories with a mention of contact with an unarmed citizen.

Your first video was almost there as a valid example. It actually had multiple armed attackers (+1). It actually had the citizen engaging and being engaged by the attackers (+2). It had the citizen experiencing a negative outcome due to the event (fatally wounded)(+3). What it was lacking was evidence that the citizen's weapon choice contributed to the negative outcome. If I missed that evidence, please let me know. Does anybody know if Correia covered this shooting on ASP?

Oh lord, I'm out. If you're going to demand some specific 'evidence' that meets your arbitrary criteria, as opposed to irrefutable evidence that people you discount the existence of are really out there, there's nothing more to be said.

The rest of us will realize that multiple, determined attackers are out there, and try to be prepared to confront them and survive. You do you.

Larry

 

[film495]

a lot of time I carry smaller, just cause. down to an NAA mini revolver. if I'm more serious about it, I have 30-45 rounds, especially if I have a jacket pocket. I'm reconsidering the mini for a full size beretta 92 open carry on my hip, just cause local spikes in some kinds of crime locally. really, anywhere you are - you could say was a lot different/safer 3 years ago.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Oh lord, I'm out. If you're going to demand some specific 'evidence' that meets your arbitrary criteria, as opposed to irrefutable evidence that people you discount the existence of are really out there, there's nothing more to be said.

The rest of us will realize that multiple, determined attackers are out there, and try to be prepared to confront them and survive. You do you.

OK. Nobody said they don't exist, but there seems to little be convincing evidence that they press an extended attack after confronting who they thought was an unarmed victim with any sense of regularity beyond a random data point. Neither does the armed citizen's weapon choice seem to play a huge role in the outcome of such an encounter. But like you said, "you do you".

I will maintain my standard daily carry of a 5 to 9 shot primary with reload and a compact BUG until I see something to justify a change.

Everybody has their own factors that drive their carry choices. For me, the ability to put effective fire on target at extended range with a compact handgun is just as important as how fast I execute a tactical reload. This is due to local events, such as the King Soopers shooting (at a store where my wife kept her prescriptions and I have shopped since I was a kid), making it clear that not every defensive encounter can be handled by mag dumps on the 3 to 15 yard range. My two relatively recent encounters that entered into the realm of a potential defensive shooting (minimal boxes checked on one, almost all boxes checked on another) were not events that made me concerned about capacity of my carry gun at the time.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

I am still interested in hearing a report on any civilian who has been killed due to only having a J-frame revolver. I have never personally heard that ever happening to a normal citizen.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Your first video was almost there as a valid example. The citizen was just out in public, not somebody manning the overnight counter at "U-SMOK-UM" (+1). It actually had multiple armed attackers (+2). It actually had the citizen engaging and being engaged by the attackers (+3). It had the citizen experiencing a negative outcome due to the event (fatally wounded)(+4). What it was lacking was evidence that the citizen's weapon choice contributed to the negative outcome. If I missed that evidence, please let me know. Does anybody know if Correia covered this Chicago shooting on ASP?

... and here it is:



In John's opinion, it was primarily tactics and simple bad luck, not the defenders choice of a J-frame, that resulted in the negative outcome. Others may have a different assessment.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

... and here it is:



In John's opinion, it was primarily tactics and simple bad luck, not the defenders choice of a J-frame, that resulted in the negative outcome. Others may have a different assessment.

Seems like the J-frame caused those goblins to turn tail and get out of dodge. I doubt the outcome would of faired any better had he had more firepower. He was just unluckily struck. Very sad shoot. Hope those little gangstas get apprehended.