Carry on Native American Lands

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archigos

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I'm trying to decrypt the meaning of Native American laws on their lands pertaining to me. I am not a Native American and do not reside on a reservation, but sometimes wish to visit casinos located in Native American lands. I've been researching a little and have found
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/tribal_law_ccw.pdf. My specific needs are primarily in the Oneida nation in NY - Turning Stone Casino. I've called their public safety department and asked if they honor NYS permits, to which their answer was "We do not allow firearms in our casinos." Quite frankly, I don't care about their "policies", I only care about the law, and the person with whom I spoke was unable to give me an answer on whether it was law or policy.

Looking at the aforementioned document, I see that it states:
A Native American is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree when:
...
4. He possesses any loaded firearm. Such possession shall not, except as provided in subdivision one, constitute a violation of this section if such possession takes place in such person’s home or place of business.

I also found in http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=435&invol=191 the following:
Indian tribal courts do not have inherent criminal jurisdiction to try and to punish non-Indians, and hence may not assume such jurisdiction unless specifically authorized to do so by Congress.

Does this mean that I am good to go?
 
I'm trying to decrypt the meaning of Native American laws on their lands pertaining to me. I am not a Native American and do not reside on a reservation, but sometimes wish to visit casinos located in Native American lands. I've been researching a little and have found
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/tribal_law_ccw.pdf. My specific needs are primarily in the Oneida nation in NY - Turning Stone Casino. I've called their public safety department and asked if they honor NYS permits, to which their answer was "We do not allow firearms in our casinos." Quite frankly, I don't care about their "policies", I only care about the law, and the person with whom I spoke was unable to give me an answer on whether it was law or policy.

Looking at the aforementioned document, I see that it states:

I also found in http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=435&invol=191 the following:

Does this mean that I am good to go?

Each state is a little different, but in all cases the U.S. Supreme Court said tribal laws only apply to Indians.

Bear in mind that they are considered private property, so like you point out, they may have policies.
 
I took a CCW class in Northern California, the instructor's comment was that when driving on reservation land, he was required by Reservation law to disassemble slide from frame. Never did it myself, but that's what he said...
 
I'll add that while tribal laws do not apply to non-Native Americans, Federal laws do. Criminal violations on tribal land is usually investigated by the FBI...and I believe all violations would be felonies.
 
They may not have jurisdiction to try and punish non-tribal members, but they do have power of arrest and then turn you over to the Feds.
I'm not sure which, if either, I would want to mess with, the Indian Police or the FBI.
(Good luck trying to tell an Indian Cop that his tribal law doesn't pertain to you and he can go pack sand........:rolleyes:)
 
yep, here in CT, it's a NO-No, period.

I almost accidentally violated that baby...... not that I really would've been "caught", but I don't want to break the law.

A shame really, I like our casinos too!

Jonathan
 
9mmepiphany said:
I'll add that while tribal laws do not apply to non-Native Americans, Federal laws do. Criminal violations on tribal land is usually investigated by the FBI...and I believe all violations would be felonies.

deadin said:
They may not have jurisdiction to try and punish non-tribal members, but they do have power of arrest and then turn you over to the Feds.
I'm not sure which, if either, I would want to mess with, the Indian Police or the FBI.
(Good luck trying to tell an Indian Cop that his tribal law doesn't pertain to you and he can go pack sand........)

A lot depends on state law. In Washington, tribal law only applies to Native Americans who live on the reservation. To all others, state law applies. In Washington, tribal police are state commissioned law enforcement officers, if they have been through the training/qualification; so, throughout the state Tribal police can enforce state law upon non-Indians and can enforce tribal law upon Indians who reside on the reservation.

For firearms, that means state preemption continues to apply on the reservations for non-Indians and non-resident Indians. If a reservation has a tribal no-firearms law, to the aforementioned populations, those tribal laws carry exactly the same wait as a no firearms sign at the local stop & rob. There is no statutory violation for carrying. They can ask you to leave the reservation, however, and if you do not leave they can cite you for trespassing. If you break a state law on the reservation, tribal police can write you a citation and forward it to the regular, non-Indian courts for adjudication.

This is all according to Washington state law, so it won't apply in other states, but just an example. Reservation does not equal Federal land or Federal jurisdiction.
 
I think first I'd ask if you can you legally carry in a casino in NY, outside of the reservation?? I'm not sure you can if they have a liquor license, but that would likely be dependent upon class of liquor license as well.

As for their jurisdiction over you on the reservation... I wouldn't think sitting in a tribal jail until the FBI arrived to sort things out, would be worth disputing their jurisdiction on tribal lands. While they may not have the legal right to prosecute you, they most certainly have the legal right to take you into custody, until the proper authorities arrive to escort you from the reservation.
 
As for their jurisdiction over you on the reservation... I wouldn't think sitting in a tribal jail until the FBI arrived to sort things out, would be worth disputing their jurisdiction on tribal lands. While they may not have the legal right to prosecute you, they most certainly have the legal right to take you into custody, until the proper authorities arrive to escort you from the reservation.

Do you happen to have a citation to the law that solidifies your theory?

For example, New York State Law:
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$IND11$$@TXIND011+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=15903791+&TARGET=VIEW

§ 11. Trespasses on tribal lands. An action may be brought, in the
name of the people of the state, against any person other than an
Indian, trespassing upon tribal lands, by the district attorney of the
county in which such lands are situated
, upon security for the payment
of the costs of such action being given to his satisfaction, or in the
name of the nation, tribe or band, by any three of the chiefs, head men
or councilors thereof, upon security being given to the satisfaction of
the county judge of the county in which such lands are situated, for the
payment of the costs of such action. The security for the payment of
costs, as provided by this section, shall be filed, if the action is
before a justice of the peace, with him, and otherwise, in the office of
the county clerk. The damages recovered, after paying expenses, shall be
distributed among the Indians occupying such lands.

Doesn't seem to be a Federal issue at all, according to statute.
 
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A private property has the right to not allow you to carry a gun onto their property. If you don't like their rules don't go, if you told someone not to do something in your house you would throw them out right? Use respect, you may not like the rules but honor them.
 
stranger04 said:
A private property has the right to not allow you to carry a gun onto their property. If you don't like their rules don't go, if you told someone not to do something in your house you would throw them out right? Use respect, you may not like the rules but honor them.
This does not pertain to the context of this thread.
 
NavyLT, is that specifically referencing trespassing, or all crimes? I know it says "Trespassing" in the beginning but I can't determine the context of it.
 
A private property has the right to not allow you to carry a gun onto their property. If you don't like their rules don't go, if you told someone not to do something in your house you would throw them out right? Use respect, you may not like the rules but honor them.

This does not pertain to the context of this thread.

Actually archigos, his statement is about as accurate and dead on with your OP as can be. You specifically asked about carrying into the Indian Casino I.E. PRIVATE PROPERTY so can you please tell us what part of his comment does not pertain to the context of this thread? As much as I love our freedoms, I see this question in many different ways but with the same answers from several. "I don't care what you like, I will carry my firearm on YOUR property if I so choose because MY rights to carry overrule YOUR rights to have dominion over your OWN property!" << That seems to be a VERY common answer by many. Now, While I do agree that everyone has the right to defend themselves and we all should have the right to carry, I also believe that EVERYONE has the right to CHOOSE if they want someone armed on THEIR property. If you do not like THEIR rules on THEIR property, then YOU have the right to CHOOSE not to enter. That my friend is what is called FREEDOM.
 
http://www.tribal-institute.org/lists/jurisdiction.htm - This may help in your search.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00689.htm

In all cases jurisdiction...

"Non-Indian/Victimless - State jurisdiction is exclusive, although federal jurisdiction may attach if an impact on individual Indian or tribal interest is clear. "

Whether impact could be proven in the eyes of the law or not would be a matter of legal interpetation. Personally, I would consult legal counsel before I did, and request a written opinion, otherwise your attorney is subject to not remember giving you that advice in a court of law. And, in my experience with attorneys, if you ask 3 of them, you'll get at least 5 different opinions... 4 of which may or may not hold up in court.
 
Actually archigos, his statement is about as accurate and dead on with your OP as can be. You specifically asked about carrying into the Indian Casino I.E. PRIVATE PROPERTY

Heck, in Washington state the whole entire reservation is nothing more than private property to anyone who isn't an Indian living on the reservation!
 
Exactly correct Navy. Now you tell me this. On YOUR property, would you like it if someone came onto your property after you have forbade it? This is the same thing. If they do not want you on their property while armed then that is 100% THEIR right. archigos, you may not care for their "policies" and only care for "law" but for me, and anyone else that is truly American and gives a damn for our freedoms, policy on someones PRIVATE property and LAW are one in the same. I am master of my castle and if someone chooses to disobey a "policy" I have on my property they can and most definitely will be escorted promptly from my property. It is the people that are always saying exactly what you said "Quite frankly, I don't care about their "policies", I only care about the law," that give all of the people that carry a bad name. Others look at those statements and consider you nothing more than an armed thug that does not care for anyones rights but his own.
 
Freedom_fighter_in_IL, I didn't post a legal question with the intention of starting an argument. Everybody's man is his castle, and I respect their rights to private property, including the right to ask me to leave if they wish. I furthermore do not respect any group or individual that seeks to prohibit a person's natural right to defend oneself, and seek a life in which those corrupt entities derive no gain from my wallet. Normally I would say that a business or individual that does not want concealed carry on their premises is a business or individual that does not want me on their premises, but unfortunately there are sometimes circumstances that mandate that we go to places we'd prefer not to venture. This includes casinos.
Either way, if you want to continue your line of discussion, feel free to do so in PM.
I'd respectfully request that this thread be used for legal discussion, as I am attempting only to solicit useful discussion on the topic.
 
In SD, the Indian Reservations are largely the rural equivalent to the inner city, with all the problems assciated with that sort of environment(extreme poverty ((I believe SD is home to the poorest county per capita in the nation)) violence, drugs, gang activity, etc). Crime, even violent crime, is rarely prosecuted, and drugs and gang violence are the norm, not the exception. Nowhere in SD's concealment laws does it state the reservations are illegal to carry on, and quite frankly, I feel the NEED to carry there moreso than anywhere else in the state, "policy" be damned. Besides, the Indian Reservations ARE NOT "private property" but rather are considered "soverign nations" with law enforcement being a Federal matter, usually though the BIA, but oftentimes involving the FBI in more serious cases. Theres a patchwork of jurisdictions, but, to the best of my knowledge, all consider a SD ccw as valid. I have NEVER heard of a prosecution for carrying concealed anywhere(barring the school, courthouse, liquor exceptions plainly spelled out in law) in the stae when the person was properly licensed to carry.

SD law on where one may carry:
The permit is valid throughout South Dakota except in any licensed on-sale malt beverage or alcoholic beverage establishment that derives over one-half of its total income from the sale of malt or alcoholic beverages (SDCL 23-7-8.1); any county courthouse as defined in SDCL 22-14-22; or any elementary or secondary schools (SDCL 13-32-7). The permit is not transferable from one person to another (SDCL 23-7-8.3).
SD law doesn't, in any place, include the reservation or trust lands as exempted areas to one's right to carry concealed, and quite frankly, "policy" isn't enough to dissuade me from taking what I see as common sense measures of protecting myself or my family, especially when said area is known for violence and gang activity (example...a Native American gang from SD was actually featured on the series "Gangland" last year)......recently, home burglaries have been occurring...I personally know of at least 3 residences that have been broken into in the past 3 months.....and the ONLY things being taken in these robberies are guns.... pretty scary, considering only 2000 people inhabit this area of 1310 square miles. I don't think people would consider me an "armed thug" for refusing to go about my daily business...which oftentimes involves criss-crossing reservation and Indian trust lands several times a day, when this kind of activity is becoming common place, and the nearest law enforcement is...at best...located a half hours drive from the ranch headquarters. I WILL NOT sacrifice my own safety or well being because someone is afraid of the preception I may have on someone. If we overly concern ourselves about who may potentiually be offended by our carrying, we might as well leave the guns locked up at home.



unfortunately there are sometimes circumstances that mandate that we go to places we'd prefer not to venture. This includes casinos.

Just curious, but what do you mean? I may enjoy gaming occasionally, but that doesn't mean I'm MANDATED to go to an Indian casino.......
 
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Now, While I do agree that everyone has the right to defend themselves and we all should have the right to carry, I also believe that EVERYONE has the right to CHOOSE if they want someone armed on THEIR property. If you do not like THEIR rules on THEIR property, then YOU have the right to CHOOSE not to enter. That my friend is what is called FREEDOM.

The premise is valid on its own, but it is not freedom in a larger context.
The feudal period when most people were nothing but a serf was in many regards quite similar to private property laws.
Nobility owned all property, property was not for sale, but was for rent. The acceptable payment of rent was not in currency, but in a percentage of grown crops.
Since the land belonged to the barons it was their private property and the peasants had the freedoms the baron allowed on his property.

Within modern context it is entirely conceivable something similar could happen, that most of the land in the nation will be private property held by those which do not allow such freedoms. This is especially true of large corporations, businesses and companies, and often goes even above their decision making to insurance policies. Many businesses have to have insurance to legally operate, it is not even an option under the law. Should insurance companies and their policies eventually dictate the freedoms everyone has in most locations?
Should teams of lawyers working in administration buildings hundreds of miles away be number crunching and determining the lowest liability is if they deny every employee and customer the right to arms?

We also have modern technology that is allowing quite advanced screening methods, methods that may become more and more routine and less challenged as time goes on. They already have cameras some places that can see through typical clothing and detect weapons, primarily in other parts of the world near wealthy financial areas. Most people they are used on are unaware they are even being searched while walking down the street.
As happens with all technology these things become less expensive every year and it is entirely foreseeable such things will become as routine as surveillance cameras currently are in retail stores and other private property.
Even the government has been anticipating this for some time.
Here is an article from 2007:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/journals/258/detecting-concealed-weapons.html

We discussed it here on THR a couple years ago, before the controversy with the TSA made the news this year:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=346425
Then it was rare, now airports around the nation use back scatter scanning routinely.
People know they are being searched there however, with passive cameras it is less noticed.


There was a time when just being on video camera was considered intrusive, a violation of privacy, and made people uncomfortable. Now they are standard security in most places.
There was a time when cameras were also really expensive and only high end places even considered having them for security, now everyone has even higher quality ones.
The same will happen with those that can passively detect things like concealed firearms.
Eventually every corporate building and later mom and pop store will be able to afford to install them to monitor customers and employees.


So there will be a time in the not so distant future when most on private property will readily know who is and is not armed, and a legal concealed firearm will not be concealed from view to those looking through the cameras.
If most such businesses have a no firearms policy, and most can see who has firearms, and both teams of lawyers and insurance providers mandate no guns policies for various reasons...
Eventually your freedom to carry won't mean anything, because you won't be able to go anywhere with a concealed firearm.

As the population increases the amount of undeveloped land and open space will also continue to decrease, and the density of development will increase.
If you spend time in most cities you know you cannot even drink some water or use the bathroom without entering private property, typically businesses with surveillance.
Eventually most of the population will live in such density, where developed private property with security is what surrounds you on all sides and going in and out of private property is a required part of doing anything.

Should your right to be armed cease to exist because the only places you can carry is on the sidewalk and street, and not actually stop or go inside anyplace armed? Right now it is not such a critical issue, and right now the technology that lets everyone see who is armed is not widespread, so concealed still means concealed, and most people carrying in violation of private policies are never known and so retain their freedom even in such businesses.
That will likely change.
 
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The owner or manager of any property can set policy regarding firearms on the premises. Violation of that policy can create a condition of trespass.

Doesn't matter if it's an Indian casino, Joe's Pizza Parlor or somebody's home.

Tribal police on tribal property can make an arrest. SFAIK, the feds take charge after the arrest. Federal magistrates are not noted for a sense of humor.
 
Tribal police on tribal property can make an arrest. SFAIK, the feds take charge after the arrest. Federal magistrates are not noted for a sense of humor.


+1
What Art Eatman said. A federal magistrate can ruin your day.
 
(Good luck trying to tell an Indian Cop that his tribal law doesn't pertain to you and he can go pack sand........)

Yeah, as the old saying goes, you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.
 
Art Eatman said:
Tribal police on tribal property can make an arrest. SFAIK, the feds take charge after the arrest. Federal magistrates are not noted for a sense of humor.

In most states this is simply NOT true! It is a myth that Indian reservation = Federal jurisdiction. If there isn't a Federal felony occurring, Federal law enforcement doesn't give a crap about what happens on reservation land unless it is a crime committed against an Indian resident of the Reservation or a crime committed by an Indian resident of the reservation against another person. State law is applicable, with the same enforcement jurisdiction as state law and if you're in the custody of Tribal police, they are going to call the local authorities to enforce the state law that you violated, unless the crime rises to the Federal felony level.

For example, you get stopped for speeding on the reservation, they are going to write you a ticket that is going to get forwarded to the local court out in town, most likely at the county level, just like if you got a speeding ticket 100 yards off the reservation. They aren't going to forward that ticket to the Federal courts.

If you don't believe me, call you state's Federal Marshall's office and ask them.

New York state law is surprising silent in regards to Indian reservations:
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/L...&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=29698402+&TARGET=VIEW

For example:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/se...-enforcement-on-indian-reserva/news-breaking/

JURISDICTION

A look at the division of criminal jurisdiction on American Indian reservations in most states:

Crimes by Indians against Indians: Federal and/or tribal authorities can prosecute.

Crimes by Indians against non-Indians: Federal and/or tribal authorities can prosecute.

Crimes by non-Indian against Indians: Only federal authorities can prosecute.

Crimes by non-Indians against non-Indians: Only state authorities can prosecute.

Victimless crimes by non-Indians: Only state authorities can prosecute.

Victimless crimes by Indians: Only tribe can prosecute.
 
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