Carrying while paintballing
- Thread starter zahc
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Every year or two, someone else dies while participating in a useful force on force training session. Happened in Arlington a coupla years ago. The idjit shooter is suing A.P.D. to try to get his job back after popping his buddy with a duty round to the head instead of a Simunition round. Seems he went to lunch and loaded up, but forgot to completely unload again upon returning from lunch.
Force On Force is a fantastic tool. Consider how much more you learn at a practical pistol match where you move and shoot than you do just standing and shooting at paper. Now add the component of having your targets move and try to tag you back. There's that much more to learn about tactics and how you'll react.
I think that getting your brain in the right mindset is very important. That would mean putting up the deadly weapons, and using your tools to shoot back.
But if we kill each other while practicing, we'll lose this valuable tool.
Dr. Jones-- you like to carry when out in the woods. Well guess what? I carry ALL THE TIME. The last time that I was in public and did not have a firearm on my person, I was at the Y, swimming. And honestly, it bugged heck out of me. But I managed to park very closeby, and could have armed myself within 15 to 30 seconds.
My point is just this: I am not one of these fair weather carriers. I am a father and a husband and a man of my community, and will not let those who cannot defend themselves go undefended in my presence. That said, when I am training, I train for real. It is VERY hard for me to point a paintball gun at another person to shoot them. I have to get myself into a mindset of training. Sure, paintball can be fun, but it's training, for many of us.
If you're breaking rules that should be ingrained into your psyche NOT to shoot at a person who is not threatening iminent bodily harm to you or a loved one, there had better be some damned good ground rules that you follow. First: it's absolutely safe. 2nd: There's no possibilty for things to go wrong. 3rd: check and recheck. If you're going to break your safety rules by pointing a gun-- ANY GUN-- at a person, make sure there's not a gun on scene that can kill them.
In the long run, you're way ahead-- it's far safer to put in good practice unarmed, then to never practice and remain armed all the time.
Force On Force is a fantastic tool. Consider how much more you learn at a practical pistol match where you move and shoot than you do just standing and shooting at paper. Now add the component of having your targets move and try to tag you back. There's that much more to learn about tactics and how you'll react.
I think that getting your brain in the right mindset is very important. That would mean putting up the deadly weapons, and using your tools to shoot back.
But if we kill each other while practicing, we'll lose this valuable tool.
Dr. Jones-- you like to carry when out in the woods. Well guess what? I carry ALL THE TIME. The last time that I was in public and did not have a firearm on my person, I was at the Y, swimming. And honestly, it bugged heck out of me. But I managed to park very closeby, and could have armed myself within 15 to 30 seconds.
My point is just this: I am not one of these fair weather carriers. I am a father and a husband and a man of my community, and will not let those who cannot defend themselves go undefended in my presence. That said, when I am training, I train for real. It is VERY hard for me to point a paintball gun at another person to shoot them. I have to get myself into a mindset of training. Sure, paintball can be fun, but it's training, for many of us.
If you're breaking rules that should be ingrained into your psyche NOT to shoot at a person who is not threatening iminent bodily harm to you or a loved one, there had better be some damned good ground rules that you follow. First: it's absolutely safe. 2nd: There's no possibilty for things to go wrong. 3rd: check and recheck. If you're going to break your safety rules by pointing a gun-- ANY GUN-- at a person, make sure there's not a gun on scene that can kill them.
In the long run, you're way ahead-- it's far safer to put in good practice unarmed, then to never practice and remain armed all the time.
Well, despite my belief that we should all have access to our own 40mm Bofors and 81mm mortar systems (if desired), I reckon I must be one of those damned insidious anti-freedom gun-grabbing types...just because I reckon that participation in a sport which includes not carrying as a precondition means that you shouldn't be carrying. Least if you have any honor. Not to mention that to carry under the circumstances would be stupid. Amazingly so.
As one site put it, "Fourth Rule: No real weapons allowed. This includes knives, real guns, assault helicopters, etc."
Having played OPFOR a good bit in the past few years, I can tell you (though without Jeff or Pat's extensive experience), that live carry with FOF just does not and should not mix. People tend to get hurt anyway, and tossing live weapons in the mix is just begging for trouble. If you think you're in too much risk to go without your carry piece, don't play.
As one site put it, "Fourth Rule: No real weapons allowed. This includes knives, real guns, assault helicopters, etc."
Having played OPFOR a good bit in the past few years, I can tell you (though without Jeff or Pat's extensive experience), that live carry with FOF just does not and should not mix. People tend to get hurt anyway, and tossing live weapons in the mix is just begging for trouble. If you think you're in too much risk to go without your carry piece, don't play.
Devonai
Member
First of all, let me say that if I wanted to play paintball again, and the owner or the field or the organizer of the game asked/demanded that no live weapons would be present, then I would respect that request.
If it wasn't an issue, I wouldn't make it an issue. A paintball marker is completely different in function than a firearm, and the vast majority also look quite a bit different (especially pistols). I don't believe for a moment that a person of average intelligence and demeanor could ever mistake one for the other, no matter how intense the game became. Your marker is carried off-body, a live pistol would be carried concealed and in a retention holster. Bypassing the concealing garment and then the retention feature (thumbstrap) requires such a deliberate effort as to be almost completely impossible to do in error.
Some of you are drawing similarities with force-on-force law enforcement and military training. IMHO this is not a good analogy for the simple reason that you are training with live weapons loaded with blanks or marking ammunition (or unloaded entirely). I would NOT carry in this environment and I concur wholeheartedly with those who have said so. It is too easy indeed to confuse a live round with a blank/starburst especially when you're using your personal or duty weapon.
I've participated in OPFOR courtesy of the MVM and National Guard many times a year over the past three years. I did not carry a pistol because it is against the law to do so on a military base and I have no desire to visit the stockade. I trust myself to be able to make the correct legal or tactical decision even on a military base, but the law disagrees. Even if this was different, I would still make sure that I was carrying no live ammunition before participating in OPFOR. Accidents happen. And yes, deep in the woods on a military base is probably one of the safest places on the planet.
Paintball games are a completely different situation, and I stand by my opinion on carrying therein.
If it wasn't an issue, I wouldn't make it an issue. A paintball marker is completely different in function than a firearm, and the vast majority also look quite a bit different (especially pistols). I don't believe for a moment that a person of average intelligence and demeanor could ever mistake one for the other, no matter how intense the game became. Your marker is carried off-body, a live pistol would be carried concealed and in a retention holster. Bypassing the concealing garment and then the retention feature (thumbstrap) requires such a deliberate effort as to be almost completely impossible to do in error.
Some of you are drawing similarities with force-on-force law enforcement and military training. IMHO this is not a good analogy for the simple reason that you are training with live weapons loaded with blanks or marking ammunition (or unloaded entirely). I would NOT carry in this environment and I concur wholeheartedly with those who have said so. It is too easy indeed to confuse a live round with a blank/starburst especially when you're using your personal or duty weapon.
I've participated in OPFOR courtesy of the MVM and National Guard many times a year over the past three years. I did not carry a pistol because it is against the law to do so on a military base and I have no desire to visit the stockade. I trust myself to be able to make the correct legal or tactical decision even on a military base, but the law disagrees. Even if this was different, I would still make sure that I was carrying no live ammunition before participating in OPFOR. Accidents happen. And yes, deep in the woods on a military base is probably one of the safest places on the planet.
Paintball games are a completely different situation, and I stand by my opinion on carrying therein.
mattd
Member
If you shoot some animals with a paintball gun they will think you are god and run away, others might get pissed. A little gun isn't big enough anyways, maybe.
Devonai said;
Actually you have hit on exactly why you shouldn't have a live weapon. Especially if you train for a real world encounter. There is an old adage that you will fight the way you train. And that's very true. If you've established the proper mindset to remain in the fight and win, you may find your CCW weapon in your hand despite the concealing garment and thumbreak. Think about it. If you have trained hard on deploying a secondary weapon upon the failure or your primary, you could end up with your backup in your hand without even conciously thinking about doing it. There is a thread over in Strategies and Tactics on close quarters tactics. Many of us carry backup weapons on a daily basis and train to employ them.
Now I'm not saying that anyone here is unaware enough that they will automatically default to a live backup weapon during a paintball match. But I can promise you that if CCW on the paintball fields was a common practice, someone would and there would be a tragedy. A tragedy that media and VPC and the Brady Bunch would love to exploit to hurt both CCW and paintball.
I personally advocate that no one be unarmed. And yes I would sooner go out withoutt my pants then my gun. But the danger is just too great in some places. Anyplace where you point simulated weapons at another person is no place to have a live weapon....
Jeff
Actually you have hit on exactly why you shouldn't have a live weapon. Especially if you train for a real world encounter. There is an old adage that you will fight the way you train. And that's very true. If you've established the proper mindset to remain in the fight and win, you may find your CCW weapon in your hand despite the concealing garment and thumbreak. Think about it. If you have trained hard on deploying a secondary weapon upon the failure or your primary, you could end up with your backup in your hand without even conciously thinking about doing it. There is a thread over in Strategies and Tactics on close quarters tactics. Many of us carry backup weapons on a daily basis and train to employ them.
Now I'm not saying that anyone here is unaware enough that they will automatically default to a live backup weapon during a paintball match. But I can promise you that if CCW on the paintball fields was a common practice, someone would and there would be a tragedy. A tragedy that media and VPC and the Brady Bunch would love to exploit to hurt both CCW and paintball.
I personally advocate that no one be unarmed. And yes I would sooner go out withoutt my pants then my gun. But the danger is just too great in some places. Anyplace where you point simulated weapons at another person is no place to have a live weapon....
Jeff
tiberius
Member
Personally, I don't think that there is a definitive answer that would apply to all paintball scenarios here.
After reading the excellent discussion in this thread, I'm of two minds. Intellectually and ideologically I am with the "personal armament is sacrosanct" crowd, but the “paintball is different†crowd has made string arguments.
I don’t really have anything to add, but I do want say that this has been a very “high road†type discussion and serves as a reminder that there really isn’t always a simple, definitive answer.
After reading the excellent discussion in this thread, I'm of two minds. Intellectually and ideologically I am with the "personal armament is sacrosanct" crowd, but the “paintball is different†crowd has made string arguments.
I don’t really have anything to add, but I do want say that this has been a very “high road†type discussion and serves as a reminder that there really isn’t always a simple, definitive answer.
gun-fucious
Member
heres a wrinkle
what is more dangerous
a CCW on the field
or a handfull of 68 caliber marbles in a tied pouch?
what is more dangerous
a CCW on the field
or a handfull of 68 caliber marbles in a tied pouch?
Edward429451
member
Shhhh.
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