Case length variation after sizing .223

Big-bore-bob

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Hi all,
So my question is... I just sized about 1200 lake city cases that I trimmed to 1.75 on the initial loading. After firing and sizing my oal varies from 1.748 to 1.753. Will this variation affect the precision of my reloads with this brass? ( ammo will be loaded with 24.1gr rl15 and 77gr smks). Ammo will be fired from my precision radian ar15. I'd like to avoid trimming since it's within saami spec, however if it improves the precision of the ammo ill go ahead and trim to a more consistent length.
 
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Hi all,
So my question is... I just sized about 1200 lake city cases that I trimmed to 1.75 on the initial loading. After firing and sizing my oal varies from 1.748 to 1.753. Will this variation affect the precision of my reloads with this brass? ( ammo will be loaded with 24.1gr rl15 and 77gr smks). Ammo will be fired from my precision radian ar15. I'd like to avoid trimming since it's within saami spec, however if it improves the precision of the ammo ill go ahead and trim to a more consistent length.
I trim to max length, by the shoulder using 10 samples. So I set my Lyman express to trim to have no case in the 10 greater than 1.760. That leaves brass to continue fire forming without being short. Trimming by the case shoulder equalizes bullet hold and only fully fire forming will equalize case volume.
 
Hi all,
So my question is... I just sized about 1200 lake city cases that I trimmed to 1.75 on the initial loading. After firing and sizing my oal varies from 1.748 to 1.753. Will this variation affect the precision of my reloads with this brass?

Change rifle chamber, change sizing die, and I have seen fired cases change their sized OAL. Case length probably makes a difference with the bench rest and F class crowd, those guys see things I never saw with hand held firearms. If you shoot your 223 brass from a gas gun, just forget about bench rest techniques, the action is hard on brass, and what you want is brass that always feeds and extracts, and what case length that comes out of the chamber cannot be predicted or anticipated, and makes zero difference on paper.

When I shot service, which were Garands, M1a's, and AR15's, I full length sized, and trimmed each case, each firing. Had to buy expensive trimmers, such as a Giraud, because I needed to trim 88 rounds after every match, most weekends of the month. I did not have time for those lathe trimmers. Trimming after every sizing ensured I did not have an over long case neck, which would pinch the bullet in the throat. Other than trimming the case back from the throat for function and safety, I never determined any on target variations due to trim length. If it exists, it is way down in the weeds.
 
Change rifle chamber, change sizing die, and I have seen fired cases change their sized OAL
I use the same dillon 5.56/.223 dies for all my loading and fire all ammo from the same rifle.
If your diligent I agree, anywhere in the range works just fine. I'm terrified of people who ask if trimming is really nessary. I've seen that question quite a bit....
I'm always diligently checking brass oal to make sure I'm within saami spec for my ammo (most times to a ocd level degree).
 
I trim to max length, by the shoulder using 10 samples. So I set my Lyman express to trim to have no case in the 10 greater than 1.760. That leaves brass to continue fire forming without being short. Trimming by the case shoulder equalizes bullet hold and only fully fire forming will equalize case volume.
Is this a realistic goal for ammo fired in a semi-automatic platform? I definitely don't doubt your process I'm just curious. Is fire forming brass to a chamber in an AR platform going to cause issues in feeding reliability? I posted the initial question because I saw a potential issue with neck tension with varying length necks (albeit a small relative difference). Is .004-.005 oal variation going to cause any real accuracy difference with commercial surplus military brass (relative to other potential variation inherent to mass produced brass?) Im also always well within max saami length for .223/5.56 brass.
 
In my own case, I am just about to finish up with a MFRB that was packed FULL with mixed brand cases. Luckily it was mainly only some Fed, LC, and PPU with a handful of Rem thrown in. That said, I trimmed them all to 1.750" after the initial de-prime, and anneal job. Before trimming they all went through a SB die just to ensure function.

My main goal is to duplicate the results on paper I have gotten from like processed cases to be used for hunting rounds. I have not tried anything other than this same procedure with my cases to in all honesty say yes that will or will not make a difference. With a glass bedded, tuned action, bolt gun I would guess as to yes you could see the differences. With gas operated, there are other variables involved that could influence the result. I am relatively new to the gas gun game and am still figuring out what does what.
 
Is this a realistic goal for ammo fired in a semi-automatic platform? I definitely don't doubt your process I'm just curious. Is fire forming brass to a chamber in an AR platform going to cause issues in feeding reliability? I posted the initial question because I saw a potential issue with neck tension with varying length necks (albeit a small relative difference). Is .004-.005 oal variation going to cause any real accuracy difference with commercial surplus military brass (relative to other potential variation inherent to mass produced brass?) Im also always well within max saami length for .223/5.56 brass.
Fire firmed for me is when your bumping every peace for headspace and your variation is small. To put a number on it, .004 total variation in the shoulder. I use .002-.003 for bump on semi ammunition olus one for slop
 
I use the same dillon 5.56/.223 dies for all my loading and fire all ammo from the same rifle.

I'm always diligently checking brass oal to make sure I'm within saami spec for my ammo (most times to a ocd level degree).
Why bother diligently checking the brass to see if it is within spec wasting time when you could just trim the brass to the same length and be done with it? What happens if you check 100 pieces and one is over speck, do you trim the whole lot or just the one?
 
Hi all,
So my question is... I just sized about 1200 lake city cases that I trimmed to 1.75 on the initial loading. After firing and sizing my oal varies from 1.748 to 1.753. Will this variation affect the precision of my reloads with this brass? ( ammo will be loaded with 24.1gr rl15 and 77gr smks). Ammo will be fired from my precision radian ar15. I'd like to avoid trimming since it's within saami spec, however if it improves the precision of the ammo ill go ahead and trim to a more consistent length.
It's doubtful it will matter, but for accuracy loads I trim every time, not much trouble, might as well.
 
Is .004-.005 oal variation going to cause any real accuracy difference with commercial surplus military brass (relative to other potential variation inherent to mass produced brass?)

Although there are always exceptions, I would say NO. There are far more variables going on than a slight variation on case neck length. As long as you are below SAAMI max, and your chamber doesn't mind, I think you are golden.

FWIW, I have a similar methodology to John's (AJC.) I measure fired, sized brass... and if it's at 1.755-1.756" or shorter, it goes right back into the Ready pile. Anything longer than that, gets turned down. Here's the thing... if I was loading for true, absolute accuracy, I wouldn't be using generic LC brass... for sure.
 
Is this a realistic goal for ammo fired in a semi-automatic platform? I definitely don't doubt your process I'm just curious. Is fire forming brass to a chamber in an AR platform going to cause issues in feeding reliability?
Bolt gun resizing and "fireforming" don't apply to gas guns. Totally different game. The first reason is, the cartridge extracts, moves, while there is still "residual" pressure in the barrel. This was measured on the "M14" gas system

oMRSvid.jpeg


What you can see is the mechanism unlocks while there is still pressure in the barrel, but the pressure is below the rupture strength of the brass. This residual pressure is used to push the case out. In theory, the extractor only holds the case on the case mouth, it should not have to extract a case, the case should pop out under the pressure.

this is from Volume IV, Design Analysis of Automatic Firing Mechanism, by LTC George Chinn.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/

OvuSHJk.jpeg


This extraction under low pressure (LT 650 psia) has the effect of stretching the case sidewalls, if case to chamber friction is high enough. And even with lubricated cases, which gave me zero case head separations in M1a's and Garands, I saw shoulder movement.


TqQrriR.jpeg


My lubricated cases were extracted while there was still pressure in the barrel of my M1a. When the case moved as the bolt moved, there was enough pressure to move the shoulder to the chamber walls, which of course, changes the shoulder shape. And that made the base to shoulder distance "long". I would not see this in a bolt gun as by the time I release the trigger, barrel pressure is zero.

And this shoulder movement in a gas gun will create strange OAL variations in ejected cases.

Is .004-.005 oal variation going to cause any real accuracy difference with commercial surplus military brass (relative to other potential variation inherent to mass produced brass?) Im also always well within max saami length for .223/5.56 brass.

For gas guns, the case should always be sized smaller than the chamber, I use small base dies where I can get them, I push the shoulder back about the same as you. Sometimes small base dies won't size the case to factory dimensions which is why roll sizers exist. Trying to "neck size" or partial neck size cases to be used in gas guns will only result in failure to extraction at some point in the future, as work hardening will assure the case will stick in the chamber.

In so far as accuracy, I am confident variations in powder pressure curves, bullet weight and centers of gravity. and primers, are far greater than case OAL. I am going to claim that primer variations are a huge black hole of ignorance. Only ammunition manufacturers with "primer mules" know the energy variations between primers, and primer lots. Primers ignite the gunpowder, the energy output, the mass ejected, the flame intensity, the distribution of all these with respect to time, is extremely important to consistent ignition. But, this is a huge black hole in the knowledge of the shooting community. Shooters just assume a primer is a primer.

Just shoot enough 22lr in bullseye competition and feel a weak round, and then look through your spotting scope and see the bullet landed no where near your break. Given enough of these to establish a pattern and you will figure out weak ignition is bad for consistent groupings. In F Cl;ass smallbore, you will see things like this:

atshzXl.jpeg


You could say that the bullet drop was due to not enough powder in the case, but have enough of these drop outs, and misfires in pistols, and I am going to claim that 99% of these drop outs is due to poor primer cake distribution in the rim, causing weak ignition.
 
Why bother diligently checking the brass to see if it is within spec wasting time when you could just trim the brass to the same length and be done with it? What happens if you check 100 pieces and one is over speck, do you trim the whole lot or just the one?

Since I process brass in small batches, and also because I use a Giraud Tri-Way trimmer, which makes it easy, I trim every time. As long as the case passes a drop-in gauge test, I don't much care what the trim length is, just as long as everything is trimmed the same.

Tim
 
Well I just went through and gauged all of the cases with my dillon case headspace gauge. Out of the 1200, 15 were over 1.751. I trimmed those back to 1.75. So now all cases fall between 1.7485-1.75. That took an hour and a half or so. Not bad.
Don't let your wife catch you with that brass on the nice couch...... :D
 
Well I just went through and gauged all of the cases with my dillon case headspace gauge. Out of the 1200, 15 were over 1.751. I trimmed those back to 1.75. So now all cases fall between 1.7485-1.75. That took an hour and a half or so. Not bad.
1.750 is trim to length. I wouldn't even mess with ones shorter than 1.755. I'm to understand your trying to equalize, but a thoug or two is meaningless here.... for those same efforts chasing neck tension will pay more.
 
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