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Caseless

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Nolo, Dec 19, 2007.

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  1. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Does anyone know how far along Dynamit-Nobel got in developing the caseless ammunition for the G11?
    Is it worth resurrecting that work, or would one have to start from scratch?
     
  2. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    What would be the point? caseless ammunition is a solution looking for a problem.
     
  3. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Last I heard they had about given up, due to the same old problems of breech sealing and durability of the ammo. As to them selling the info they have, money talks. I can pretty well say that if "one" wanted to continue the work, "one" would have to have a whole bunch of bucks for further R&D.

    Jim
     
  4. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    I have a design that would be benefited greatly by caseless ammunition. And caseless ammo is lighter and removes the extraction sequence, so there.
     
  5. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    In 20 yrs man portable energy based weapons will make anything firing BULLETS obsolete anyhow.
     
  6. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    I find that highly unlikely.
    Nothing's as good at tearing matter up like other matter.
     
  7. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    I'll wager you would have said the same thing if 20yrs ago someone had told you that you'll have access to all the knowledge mankind has compiled throughout it's history instantly via a small box in your living room.
     
  8. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Not with information on the Space Program, I wouldn't have.
    Anyway, bickering is going to get us nowhere.
    If your saying that firearms are going to be overshadowed by energy weapons then this whole bloody forum is pointless.
    So it's moot. Either I'm wasting my time and that's fine or you're bananas.
     
  9. mnw42

    mnw42 Member

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    From what I have read; one of the major hurdles was heat. One of the benefits of metallic cartridges is that the spent casing absorbs a lot of heat - heat that removed from the system when the case is ejected. This was mainly an issue with full auto. I guess when they started developing caseless ammo they didn't realize just how much heat was removed.

    Though, I still want my M41A Pulse Rifle...
     
  10. mnw42

    mnw42 Member

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    From what I have read; one of the major hurdles was heat. One of the benefits of metallic cartridges is that the spent casing absorbs a lot of heat - heat that removed from the system when the case is ejected. This was mainly an issue with full auto. I guess when they started developing caseless ammo they didn't realize just how much heat was removed.

    Though, I still want my M41A Pulse Rifle...:D
     
  11. akodo

    akodo Member

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    ha ha ha. yea...um, not even close yet.
     
  12. trstafford

    trstafford Member

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    Latest Design is Caseless

    Recently watched a article on the latest high rate of fire weapons and was featured on latest CSI Miami though they gave it an anti-gun twist by making it look like the ultimate terrorist weapon. bullets are stacked in barrel and fired from front to rear electronically.
     
  13. wideym

    wideym Member

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    Don't you know that the antis would just call them the weapon of choice for criminals. (Caseless=no evidence) Just like they try calling FN 5.7 "the crimianls weapon of choice to defeat police body armor".
     
  14. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Metalstorm is closer to muzzleloading than caseless. Just doesn't use a chemical ignition source.

    As mentioned, the three things that have plagued caseless ammunition are:

    -durability; brittle and very succeptible to moisture

    -breech sealing; can be fixed, but adds cost, weight and complexity

    -chamber heat buildup; again, could be kept in check, but would require the addition of a cooling system that adds cost, weight and complexity
     
  15. highorder

    highorder Member

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    but matter is only energy condensed to a slow vibration.

    I also see directed energy weapons comming into play. they will make caseless ammo an unnecessary half step; kind of like Remingtons electronically fired conventional cased ammo.
     
  16. Pigspitter

    Pigspitter Member

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    Tell that to the mosin fans.
     
  17. MrAcheson

    MrAcheson Member

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    Caseless does not remove the extraction sequence. People think it does, but that's only because they haven't thought the design through properly. You still need a good extraction path if a round fails to fire, fails to feed properly, or if you need an empty chamber for any reason (like storage and safety). And you want a good one you can do quickly in the field, not some convoluted disassembly process.
     
  18. JesseL

    JesseL Member

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    It's easy to make predictions when it turns out that they came to pass 14 years ago. :neener:
     
  19. hksw

    hksw Member

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    Resurrect this thread 20 years from now (even 10 years from now to note progress). It will be interesnting to see.

    (I'm in the, 'yeah, right' side of the argument.)

    I would have said the same thing when they said we would be driving flying cars by now back then.
     
  20. iamkris

    iamkris Member

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    Caseless ammo certainly is feasible but just not, as yet, practical. The advantages are clear...lighter weight and lack of a need of an extraction cycle. As mentioned above, however, the biggest issues are:

    • Sealing of the breach
    • Heat dissapation (e.g., the ejected brass carries away heat from the system)
    • Durability of the ammunition
    • Moisture resistance of the ammunition

    As anyone who's been an actual practicing engineer for any amount of time knows, just because it is possible doesn't mean it is the best solution at the time/most cost effective (I was an engineer for 6 years in the defense industry before I recognized 15 years ago that you can make a lot more money on the business side).

    A lot like electric cars...they are possible but they aren't practical (that's why hybrids have taken over that market)...too many negatives outweigh the positives. Also my issue with the mandates to increase use of corn-based ethanol and biodesiels. There are too many negatives (e.g., energy yield on these are low, drives up the cost of land and food prices) to overcome the positives...but as is typical with governments, they don't think that through.

    Back on topic...caseless ammo hasn't yet overcome its negatives. I also think that we'll still be shooting solid projectiles in 20 years. In fact, I think if energy weapons take over...all the fun will be gone.
     
  21. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    I'm really only concerned about the ammo itself, sealing the breech and other firearm-related issues are things I'm currently dealing with over the course of my design.
    So durability is an issue for the ammunition?
    Heat buildup is an issue for the ammunition? I think I can already deal with that.
     
  22. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Durability was and still is the main issue of perfecting a caseless ammunition system.

    There are limits to sealing the propellant portion of caseless ammo but still have it be completely combustible. You will need a material that will be able to hold together ammunition after it has been subjected to:
    1. years of storage in extremes of heat, cold from deserts to arctic conditions.
    2. humidity, fresh water, salt water, used in coastal/river environments.
    3. resist fuels, chemicals and solvents it may encounter during storage & transportation
    4. resist all solvents leeching from the gun itself (CLP, lubes, regular oils and hi-tech penetrants).
    4. shock and vibration resistance, can it be kicked out the back of moving C130s or not shake apart in trucks & AFVs going overland inplaces like Afghanistan?

    The modern brass-cased cartridge excels at remaining stable under all wartime conditions. Caseless is not even close yet.
     
  23. Caipirinha

    Caipirinha Member

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    Between that and the flying cars, just think what the drive-by shootings will be like! It'll revolutionize gang-banging!:D
     
  24. JHansenAK47

    JHansenAK47 Member

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    With what power source AA batteries? You would need a big heavy battery that would go dead. Even if they made the gun they don't have a power source for field use. Energy weapons would be vehicle mounted. Then again conventional vehicle mounted weapons are fairly lethal. So their virtues would have to outweigh the vices. I don't see any energy weapons in the infantry for at least the good part of a century.
     
  25. Historian

    Historian Member

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    Boys, If I may digress a moment. 120 years ago if we had used the present to predict the future and that future came to pass, we'd now be up to our necks in horse manure. (Which, after reading this discussion we may be anyway:))

    Historian

    "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it,"
     
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