CCI Primers

[murf]

I will check the next loads I make and make sure that I basically crush the dern things into the primer pockets. I just dont understand why the CCI's dont fire and are so finicky versus the winchesters.

Now one thing, so lets say for instance that the primer is free floating and not fully seated, but when a firing pin strikes with force wouldnt that fire the primer since they are made to react to a blunt force on the cap against the arch inside the cap to ignite the power compound. So basically if i laided it on my bench and used a pin nailer to shoot it should go off. But from what you and all say it has to be held again the prime base in the brass on all sides tight to the rim of the open side of the primer for this to function.

I use a lee hand priming tool to seat all primers. I squeeze as hard as I can with all primers (I use cci, fed, rem and win). the installed primer cup is flat all the way across the case base.




murf.

ps. no ftfs in any handload as far back as I can remember (which doesn't mean much these days!).

 

[Walkalong]

For folks who both read the thread AND have knowledge and experience with the components being discussed, it is quite obvious that:

1) a rifle in good condition should reliably ignite CCI 450’s

But…

2) Federal small rifle and WSR primers which were reliably ignited by this rifle have thinner cups, .019” for Federal 200’s and .0225” for Federal 205M’s, and .021” for Winchester WSR’s, than do CCI 450’s, .025” cup thickness.

So…

3) the fact the rifle ignited thinner cup primers is not indicative that the CCI primers are defensibly at fault or defective, other than to acknowledge, yes, by design, they are harder to ignite and therefore more likely to reveal defects in the ammunition manufacture or rifle condition.

Some folks will live longer than others, I suppose.

That’s an excellent argument for checking the physical part of the equation, the ignition components of the rifle.

 

[Bentnail63]

I am using a Ruger American Standard GEN2 bolt rifle shooting my loads of 223. IT will shoot stock shots all day long as well as my loads using Winchester Primers and Federal Primers. Now in the past year going back into last summer I started using CCI Magnum as found out that the ball powder does not quite work well without being a magnum primer. I learned that from YOU people on here and other forums and a friend too. SO up till this year starting back in Feb then this issue shows up on these primer lot.

So when I go to range I will shoot usually 3 shots of PMC 55gr factory to warm up the barrel and then turn loose on my loads for firing.

I am going to make up another 36 shots and see how those shoot this weekend.

Now I have gone and bought more CCI 450 primers making sure they are different lot than what I am having issue with last night. Maybe I am a gluton for punishment. So I will compare them with what I have.

 

[Bentnail63]

The anvil on the inside of the primer has to be set against the pack of compound when the pin strikes. Any “float” will push the primer home in the pocket, dimple the striker surface, but not set it off because the anvil is not set in place. If the anvil moves with the compound pack, you get no fire.

SO Geo, the primer then works by the impact on the prmier backing slamming into the anvil inside causing a minute spark then setting off the compound. SO if the primer is not set tight on it's flanges then the anvil has nothing to hold it again the backing of the primer to cause that little spark? I can visualize this in my head at this moment and since I am waiting on SQL Server to finish up a request on information I just asked it. Is there a video of how this works, I am curious too, since it is being said that the primer cup has to be seated tightly to back or inside the primer pocket, then the anvil that is inside, I see them when I look into the primer is the equation how it works.

 

[gwpercle]

In over 50 years of reloading I have found CCI to be prefered ...

As good as any ... and better than most !

Seat them all the way into the bottom of the primer pocket and they allways go Bang !

For me at least ... but you have to seat them all the way into the bottom of the pocket !
Gary

 

[Walkalong]

SO Geo, the primer then works by the impact on the prmier backing slamming into the anvil inside causing a minute spark then setting off the compound

The firing pin mashes the priming compound in between the cup and the anvil, so the cup needs to be pushed down around the anvil until it hits the bottom of the primer pocket just like the anvil is. If it is not, we waste precious, and sometimes barely enough, firing pin energy pushing the cup farther down because it isn’t seated firmly against the bottom of the primer pocket.

So, a harder cup with less than optimal firing pin energy could not fire when softer cups do, especially if the softer easier to seat primers are bottomed out vs the harder ones. But either way, we need to make sure the primers are bottomed out before we blame the firing pin energy.

That said, poor firing pin energy leads to poor/inconsistent ignition which is bad for accuracy as well as function, so checking it is never a bad idea.

 

[Bentnail63]

Ok so i loaded another 18 with the NEW CCI primer lot and then loaded another 18 with the Lot that I am having issues with. You can see in the photos they are seated fully into the pocket and show a reveal around the edges showing that they are pressed into depth. I have since loaded them all with CFE223 powder and pressed in the bullets for firing tomorrow. I will let you know how many do or do not fire.

 

[Varminterror]

That said, poor firing pin energy leads to poor/inconsistent ignition which is bad for accuracy as well as function, so checking it is never a bad idea.

As does floating primers. Even when they go bang, the more room they have to move before ignition, the more variability of ignition.

 

[Varminterror]

You can see in the photos they are seated fully into the pocket

No, we can’t.

Seating sub-flush doesn’t indicate full seating. Typically, we need 3-4 thou sub-flush to contact the bottom of the pocket. Easy to measure pocket depth and primer cup depth to determine your minimum contact depth.

But what I CAN see is that the primer cups are still domed, and having seated literally millions of CCI 450’s in 223rem, I almost ALWAYS see an increased diameter of the flat bottom face of the primer after seating. Just a slight crush fit to ensure the primer is bottomed in the pocket.

How far are you bumping shoulders?

How long is your FP protrusion?

How far is your pin travel?

Is your spring wiggly around the FP or straight?

Is the FP tip peened? Broken?

Is the bolt body bore and bolt face bore clean and free of burrs?

Is your FPA free of oil/grease?

 

[Walkalong]

No, we can’t.

Seating sub-flush doesn’t indicate full seating. Typically, we need 3-4 thou sub-flush to contact the bottom of the pocket. Easy to measure pocket depth and primer cup depth to determine your minimum contact depth.

Was going to post this, as it was my point all along.

My Dasher CCI-450s are seated deeper than .004 in both Alpha and Lapua cases. Measure and verify yours are actually seated to the bottom of the primer pocket.

 

[Bentnail63]

No, we can’t.

Seating sub-flush doesn’t indicate full seating. Typically, we need 3-4 thou sub-flush to contact the bottom of the pocket. Easy to measure pocket depth and primer cup depth to determine your minimum contact depth.

But what I CAN see is that the primer cups are still domed, and having seated literally millions of CCI 450’s in 223rem, I almost ALWAYS see an increased diameter of the flat bottom face of the primer after seating. Just a slight crush fit to ensure the primer is bottomed in the pocket.

How far are you bumping shoulders?

How long is your FP protrusion?

How far is your pin travel?

Is your spring wiggly around the FP or straight?

Is the FP tip peened? Broken?

Is the bolt body bore and bolt face bore clean and free of burrs?

Is your FPA free of oil/grease?

 

[Varminterror]

@Bentnail63 - how far are you bumping shoulders? What is your shoulder clearance?

You mention FL sizing, but are you just running the sizing die down against the shellholder?

 

[Bentnail63]

Isnt that how you are suppose to do it.....I deprime first and examine brass, then anneal my brass, lube it with One Shot, then Full Length it. I have thought about running thru a collet die instead of full lengthing but have not. Measure them to make sure none grew in length if so then I trim them. Chamfer in and out of the necks. Now I have not been swaging the brass as it is to be all 223 REM brass and no 556 in it. But starting to wonder if I should swage on the safe side. I then clean pockets and then once I have enough i wet tumble them. Am I missing something???

 

[ParallelCode]

Isnt that how you are suppose to do it.....I deprime first and examine brass, then anneal my brass, lube it with One Shot, then Full Length it. I have thought about running thru a collet die instead of full lengthing but have not. Measure them to make sure none grew in length if so then I trim them. Chamfer in and out of the necks. Now I have not been swaging the brass as it is to be all 223 REM brass and no 556 in it. But starting to wonder if I should swage on the safe side. I then clean pockets and then once I have enough i wet tumble them. Am I missing something???

You can control how far the shoulder of the case is pushed back when full length resizing. The amount the shoulder is set back is the "shoulder bump". One way of controlling that is by backing the die out some instead of firm contact as the directions would specify. That's what @Varminterror was asking about

 

[Bentnail63]

Ok so what you all have been waiting for. I went and shot the 18 with a different lots of CCI 450 and the other 18 with the troubled lot of CCI 450. So before I went and shot i went back thru them all since in a writing before that was concern that the primers were round ended. SO I put them each back into the priming tool and put more pressure on them all. I use a peice of card stock to verify that each primer was recessed into the brass.

So after shooting both sets, I had 2 misfires on each set. So I am guessing and I had one of those moments, breif moments like when you have that good fart that makes you feel better, that what most of you have been preaching at me and the German side of me was being stubborn that maybe those two are not pressed to full depth. Now I did check and they are but maybe not. I have not pulled those 4 bullets apart yet. But the others I have not depriimed just yet either. SO here in the dimple from the firing pin on all of them in the photo. The large group are fired and the four are not.

So I stand here casting a shadow since i am a very Tall man, 6'-9" tall and I normally duck walking thru doorways, to say....My next loads I will pay more attention to pressing in the primers. Making sure they are flattened out and left round. This is a learning experience for me and I am soaking this all up as much as I can. But then hey I hide my own easter eggs at my age now and everyday I meet new people in my house.


Now I do have observational question. When I primer the brass with Federal 205, Winchester WSR and the WMSRL (556) those fire fine. Is CCI metal thicker? But that shouldnt matter as I have seen other fire. I know there was discussion about the firing pin might not be breaching deep enought to cause the primer to fire but yet Winchesters WMSRL are a thicker primer so not to cause a bounce fire in the SA of a AR platform. So what is making the CCI more tedious or difficult to fire. I know seating of them is the first thing I am going to hear, but yet the previous mentioned fired fine. SO thoughts?

I plan on to keep using the CCI 450's cause with BLC(2) I get match grade SD's (of 8) on that load. I was working on CFE223 now to see if I achieve the same as well I will try 2230 also.

 

[Bentnail63]

You can control how far the shoulder of the case is pushed back when full length resizing. The amount the shoulder is set back is the "shoulder bump". One way of controlling that is by backing the die out some instead of firm contact as the directions would specify. That's what @Varminterror was asking about

I can try that as is that a noticable issue or I am seeing this, does anyone have examples that I can see to compare to. I seen messages and read some talking about it, but have not noticed any thicking of the brass so to speak on the necks.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

You can control how far the shoulder of the case is pushed back when full length resizing. The amount the shoulder is set back is the "shoulder bump". One way of controlling that is by backing the die out some instead of firm contact as the directions would specify. That's what @Varminterror was asking about

Would the fact that the Winchester primed brass is from the same batches, processed the same way at the same time as the brass primed with CCI indicate the shoulder is not an issue?

 

[ParallelCode]

I can try that as is that a noticable issue or I am seeing this, does anyone have examples that I can see to compare to. I seen messages and read some talking about it, but have not noticed any thicking of the brass so to speak on the necks.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for a change in brass prep in regards to this issue. I just wanted to provide some clarity on what was meant by the phrase "shoulder bump". It came up as causing confusion in another thread as well recently.

 

[Bentnail63]

Would the fact that the Winchester primed brass is from the same batches, processed the same way at the same time as the brass primed with CCI indicate the shoulder is not an issue?

So in talking about the shoulders, then are you saying that it is possible that the brass casing is not seating tightly to the throat of the barrel thus being a slight give when the pin hits that it pushes the brass alittle to not cause a fire?

 

[Bentnail63]

To be clear, I'm not advocating for a change in brass prep in regards to this issue. I just wanted to provide some clarity on what was meant by the phrase "shoulder bump".

I understand what you are clarifying. No worries there. I set my die up per Lee's instruction but if I should back it off I can.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

So in talking about the shoulders, then are you saying that it is possible that the brass casing is not seating tightly to the throat of the barrel thus being a slight give when the pin hits that it pushes the brass alittle to not cause a fire?

I’m asking for some clarification from the other folks who are trying to help. I don’t see any correlation between the shoulder setting and a no-fire given the description of the situation. My thinking is, if all of the cases are prepped the same then there should be some failures with each type of primer used, not just CCI. For that reason I’m still leaning towards seating the CCI until you see an imprint of the seating pin in the face of the primer.


I apologize for the bad photography but if you close in on the primer on one of those rounds you can see that the center is dimpled and flat from seating. Those are CCI 350’s, by the way.

 

[Varminterror]

Isnt that how you are suppose to do it.

No. Not if you want your ammo to fit your chamber.

Wheeleraccuracy.com/videos

Scroll down to “sizing brass.”

 

[Varminterror]

So in talking about the shoulders, then are you saying that it is possible that the brass casing is not seating tightly to the throat of the barrel thus being a slight give when the pin hits that it pushes the brass alittle to not cause a fire?

Yes.

 

[Varminterror]

Is CCI metal thicker?

Yes. As I described earlier in this thread.

But that shouldnt matter as I have seen other fire.

It does matter, because primers with thicker cups are harder to ignite, making them more likely to reveal any other issue with your ignition (like any of the aspects I have mentioned in this thread).

 

[Varminterror]

Would the fact that the Winchester primed brass is from the same batches, processed the same way at the same time as the brass primed with CCI indicate the shoulder is not an issue?

No, because the Winchester primers have thinner cups and are easier to ignite, so less susceptible to issue if headspace is excessive.