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CCW Holder Killed In Warrant Raid

Discussion in 'Legal' started by mattf7184, Aug 5, 2005.

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  1. mattf7184

    mattf7184 Member

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    Last edited: Aug 5, 2005
  2. CentralTexas

    CentralTexas Member

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    Hmmm

    1- Probably WAS a criminal as you know how they line up for concealed carry permits. :rolleyes:
    2-At 6:30 am all he probably heard was the door breached and came out armed to see what the matter was
    3- If it turns out to be the wong house I bet "He stiil appeared a threat"
    4- Let's keep up with this one and see what shakes outCT
     
  3. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    Be interesting to get more detail on this event. Not enough to comment on at this point.
     
  4. rhubarb

    rhubarb Member

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    He had a conviction seven years ago for marijuana. He would have been sixteen at the time. Was the conviction for possession or dealing? In Texas, even juvenile records are taken into account when considering granting a concealed handgun license. I don't know about Florida.

    Probably the knowledge that he had a permit and was therefore likely armed was what prompted sending a SWAT team.

    The question is, and none of these articles say, did they find drugs? Evil assault weapons? Explosives? Illegal knives? The dearly departed was a known druggie and gun nut. End of story. Everybody go on about your business. Even a dangerous pothead should know better than to provoke a 'standoff' with the police and then point a gun at them. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

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    Feel sorry for the SWAT officers, being obligated to do other people's dirty work. Let the DEA get the blood on its hands enforcing it's own stupid laws.
     
  6. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    "...he was probably defending his home and was killed."

    Okay. Now think, "Tactics". Assume for the moment it wasn't the cops. Do YOU go wandering out your front door with your pistol in your hand, not knowing what's out there? Assume for the moment that whatever got your attention was indeed some Bad Guy. Don't you first try to figure out what's going on, before exposing your Precious Bod to some forces of evil?

    Nowhere on a Driver's License or on one's Carry Permit is there a little box marked "Smart".

    Sure, it's sad. But you don't charge blindly into the unknown. Having a Carry Permit doesn't make you bullet-proof.

    Art
     
  7. ksnecktieman

    ksnecktieman Member

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    I agree, insufficient facts. I would like to know if the officers were in uniform. I would like to know if they performed a "no knock entry".
     
  8. DMF

    DMF Member

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    [​IMG] It's been a while since I checked, but I'm pretty sure there are some state laws in FL which make a variety of narcotics illegal to posses, and sell.
     
  9. HonorsDaddy

    HonorsDaddy Member

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    Reading between the lines...

    There is a distinct lack of detail in any of the stories and the only thing they could dredge up on the guy was a drug conviction when he was a teenager which obviously did not preclude him obtaining a CCW permit.

    With that in mind, I suspect we're going to discover this was a serious screw-up on someone's part - and I dont mean the homeowner.
     
  10. chopinbloc

    chopinbloc Member

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    i doubt it. i don't know how it is in the rest of the country, but in maricopa county, az, when the sheriff's department screws the pooch (or incinerates one) it doesn't get much play on the local tv news or the major paper. people have to believe that their local law enforcement are shining white knights and the people they "visit" at odd hours are always scumbags.

    how to incinerate someone's life and get away with it. especially note the picture of the apc smashed into the car on the second page.
     
  11. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Rather interesting the verbage used by the various new articles.
    &
    Also noted in the third link is the comment that the neighbors in the normally quite neighborhood were stunned. This looks to me like if the dead fellow WAS involved in some illicit trade, he did not bother his neighbors with it.
     
  12. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    "This looks to me like if the dead fellow WAS involved in some illicit trade, he did not bother his neighbors with it."

    Sindawe, some 23 years back I shared a house with three guys. I didn't know it at the time, but one of them "muled" U-Haul truckloads of grass to WashD.C.

    He didn't bother to tell anybody how he was working his way through college...

    :), Art
     
  13. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    I bet you either he wasnt a CCW holder or more likely the cops had the wrong address or bad information. Broward county isnt exactly stranger to this sort of behavior. It seems all the poor black areas in Florida are prone to this sort of door kicking activity.

    There really isnt much you can do if a SWAT team kicks in your door in the wee hours, even if they have the wrong address. Another great reason why dynamic entries should be completely illegal.

    Though having a rifle instead of a small pistol probably helps. Better to take a few down with you than to end up as some forgotten paperwork in a police station. If cops start dying as a result of their blatantly tyranical actions, maybe it will give them pause.
     
  14. Nick1911

    Nick1911 Member

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    If someone knocks on your door in the early morning, do you immediately draw on the door and drop back to cover getting ready for a fire fight? Me either. For all we know, the guy heard a knock on the door, casually grabbed a pistol off the nightstand and started heading toward the door to answer it. He gets about half way, and armed men kick it in.

    Would you fire?

    He probably didn't know it was the poice until after he had been shot. Looks like the war on drugs has claimed another life.
     
  15. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    Well, until more comes out, it is entirely impossible to say whether or not anyone screwed up, and who was in the wrong. Despite our tendency to focus on the screw-ups, the vast majority of SWAT-type situations are handled correctly. Of course, the vast majority of CCW permit holders are also pretty decent folks, too. So one or the other is going to cut against the grain of statistical wisdom.

    Mike
     
  16. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Ya know, I think if the cops keep up with this kind of behavior, there may come a day that they will find themselves on the receiving of hostile fire from the "suspects" neighbors. Notably the activities in described in the Phoenix weekly paper.

    Art, sounds to me like you roomie of years back was just following in the fine traditions set by the Kennedys. Namely smuggling.
     
  17. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Right, most folks with CCW permits are good folks. Then again, some are just folks who have managed to fly under the radar.

    In Texas, as noted above - pertaining to check juvenile records, the person likely would not have been granted a CHL because of the drug conviction, depending on how serious it was.
     
  18. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

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    " It's been a while since I checked, but I'm pretty sure there are some state laws in FL which make a variety of narcotics illegal to posses, and sell."

    Good point, but I don't care if it's gangbangers offing each other of CCWers maybe being in the wrong place at the wrong time, marijuana isn't a legitimate reason to die over, imo.

    Also was this raid in the middle of the day, as the pictures indicate, or at night? And from a purely technical standpoint, if this was a no-knock warrant it's pretty clear that they're effective. Just supposing the dead guy was bad, he was awake, pretty well trained and armed, but didn't have time to get a shot off.

    And if he was a normal guy and it was bandits busting into his domocile, perhaps it indicates that at first sign a better action is to fall back to a better defensive position. Hell maybe if you are is a better position there might be time to converse with the police too if they are the ones breaking in.
     
  19. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Yes, and that's because the :cuss: SWAT team is committing the violence - just by breaking into houses.

    I just hope all you "oh my, drugs are baaaaaaad" people are happy :(
     
  20. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    Gonna have to go with Coronach on this one. For all we know, this went down correctly, the guy was the one they wanted, and he was going to try and take some cops with him.

    We tend to side with CCW holders, because for the most part they are good people. But when one does something stupid, we will tell the anti's that you can't judge the group based on an individual. Sometimes, I think people will jump to basing an individual on the group's behavior.
     
  21. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    I'm presuming that the reporter is correct in stating that they had a warrant. This is a constitutionally-approved act of breaking into a house. We can dicker and dither about the exact tactics used, but make no mistake: that door is going to be opened, from one side or the other. The act of going into the house is completely proper (assuming the warrant was valid).

    Mike
     
  22. mattf7184

    mattf7184 Member

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    Okay, guess im one of the few that get to see the news down here so I'll fill in what i've seen on 11pm news.

    He did have a legit CCW permit, correct house.
    Not a bad neighborhood.
    His friends say he was sleeping when this happen and was probably going to check the door.
    It was not a no-knock apparently. Sunrise PIO said they knocked before entry.
    I believe the charge for drugs he had was possesion.
    Neighbors claim no suspiscious activity from house.
    Police still are not saying if any illegal drugs or goods were found.
    They had a legit search warrant.
    Still hearing the guy didnt fire a shot at the police.

    I have a feeling this will cool off in the media and we wont hear many more details unfortunately. Media is saying 2 SWAT members going in, doesnt sound like much of an element to me...maybe they meant they were not sure which of two SWAT guys fired the fatal shot(s).
     
  23. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

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    With no-knock entries it really sounds like they're sending in the officers to kill-or-be-killed. Not fair for the officers or the occupants of the house.

    It's a messed up policy and it's as close to murder as you can get, because it is so obviously likely that people will die.
     
  24. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Joe, that is the best explanation for why dynamic entries are bad, especially in a state like Florida where nearly everybody is armed. Its bad for the cops and bad for the sucker inside his house sleeping.
     
  25. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Joejojoba111, what does "no knock" have to do with this thread? Read the post above yours...

    Art
     
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