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CCW Instructor's Action Invalidate Permit?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by rjohnson4405, Apr 18, 2008.

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  1. rjohnson4405

    rjohnson4405 Member

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    My friend took his concealed carry course with an instructor here in Ohio and we aren't sure he exactly followed the course requirements.

    There was a test, but it was taken with the students to lunch and open book (even highlighted answers).

    Also, there was range time but proficiency was never really measured.

    So, my questions are these:

    1. Are these actions against the law/requirements for CCW in Ohio?
    - We talked to some people about it but they weren't completely sure. They viewed these as unethical but couldn't decide if it was legal or not.

    2. If so, can the instructor's action render student CCW licenses invalid for improper instruction or something?

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. misANTHrope

    misANTHrope Member

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    I don't know about OH, but here in TN I understand that if a school is busted for not fulfilling the course requirements, the state can revoke the permit of every former student. My course was questionable in some regards, but I'm keeping my mouth shut.
     
  3. mekender

    mekender Member

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    it can happen in NC too...
     
  4. Kentak

    Kentak Member

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    Sounds like someone is trying to make an easy buck at the expense of teaching what the law requires and cheating their students out of the knowledge and skills they paid for and deserve.

    I was fortunate that my instructor in central Ohio was top notch and very conscientious.

    K
     
  5. TheBluesMan

    TheBluesMan Senior Member

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    I've attached a .pdf that spells out exactly what is necessary regarding concealed carry training in the State of Ohio. This document is from the Ohio Attorney General.

    If you are in doubt as to whether the instructor is legit, feel free to contact the county sheriff or the NRA (If the instructor is NRA certified.)

    I hope this helps. :)
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Linda

    Linda Member

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    Most instructors I know, do an open book test. Perfectly legal. There is nothing in the law saying it can not be open book.

    How do you know the instructor was not measuring proficency? I guess I'd like to know more about the situation than just this statement. Sure, if you've got a student shooting up the walls or ceiling of the range, there should be serious issues.
     
  7. boggyboy72

    boggyboy72 Member

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    Will you give the name of the class?Just want to see if it's the one I went to.
     
  8. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    anthro,

    I may have missed that, where in the law does it allow permits to be revoked because of instructor incompetence later?
     
  9. misANTHrope

    misANTHrope Member

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    I really have no idea where it might be in the law... I'm basing this on a discussion over at TGO, where it was said that students would be required to retake the course at their own cost and could have their permits revoked. It's basically hearsay, but it wouldn't surprise me at all for this to be the case...

    http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6056
     
  10. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

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    SomeKid, If it does exists in the law, it's likely to be case law, not something you'll find in the statutes.
     
  11. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    That is what I expected, I just read the entire section on suspension/revocation of permits. Nowhere does it list any reason for an instructor issue to be grounds for suspension/revocation of an existing permit.

    For those interested, 39-17-1352 is the relevant statute.

    http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=tncode

    Wayne, I highly doubt it came from there.

    All that said, laws can be twisted. There may be some grounds or route they can use through the maze of laws I am unaware of. IANAL and all that. It is an interesting question, though I don't think they have a legal leg to stand on.
     
  12. Linda

    Linda Member

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    I licensee could have their license suspended if it was learned the instructor was not teaching a 12 hour course. We've heard of many who are taking money and significantly cutting off many hours off the class.:fire: Per law, it is 10 hours classroom plus 2 hours range. If you hear of such, turn them in.

    Also, there was a case that surfaced up in NE Ohio a year or so back that the instructor only used air soft guns for range time. (we often wondered if it may be that the instructor himself was not allowed to posess handguns???)That's a huge disqualifier. There were about 100 people who had their licenses suspended over that one.

    If it don't feel right, it probably isn't.
     
  13. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    So, as per Linda, the answer is that if the instructor violated the requirements, then yes, your permit can be revoked for that reason.

    The remaining question is whether your instructor met the requirements. It sounds like open-book tests and fairly freewheeling range time could still meet the requirements.

    Obviously, that's not very rigorous training, so maybe in your case it depends more on what you were after. If you wanted this course for the training value, and not just to check a box so you could get the permit, then it sounds like you feel you were shorted whether the law agrees or not.

    Not much you can do about that now except tailor your recommendations to prospective students accordingly and go take a course designed to be rigorous training.
    Sorry.
     
  14. tntwatt

    tntwatt Member

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    In reading the file provided by TheBluesMan, it says you must demonstrate competancy in safe handling, not proficiency in hitting your target. It also says that the training methods pass/fail as determined by the sherrif.
     
  15. mtnmedic11

    mtnmedic11 Member

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    I took one in MA and the guy was to the letter! He was crazy, dont get me wrong, but a few people failed and had to take it over again...maybe thats just because it was in MA
     
  16. rjohnson4405

    rjohnson4405 Member

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    Boggy,

    The instructor was in Bellbrook, if you still want his name, I'll PM you.

    Measuring proficiency wasn't really possible in that multiple people were shooting at the same target at 25 yards. Who had what hits would've been impossible to determine.

    So far the answer is: It has happened that they were revoked, but the training methods acceptability is up to the sheriff? So as long as he signed off on it, it's valid?
     
  17. Linda

    Linda Member

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    25 yards or 25 feet? 25 yards would be an insane distance for basic pistol.

    The sheriff's dept. would have no idea if the training was adequet or not, unless the instructor was ratted out by someone. Then there would be an investigation, and most likely, all this guys former students would be revoked/suspended.

    It burns me when I hear of instructors cutting serious corners with their students. :fire: They need to be turned in and have their NRA instructor creditials stripped from them forever. It puts those of us who are going above and beyond the requirements, in a bad light as well.

    In Ohio, we have a 12 hour training requirement. I hear there are instructors out there who are only teaching the NRA's basic pistol course. Nothing more/nothing less. I think those instructors are doing their students a huge disservice in not taking the class to the next step and instructing a TRUE concealed carry class. If they are not giving any mindset, or going over the laws, or adding holster selection to their classes, they are not giving their students the full benefit of learning "how" to conceal carry. I talked to one "instructor" last week who only teaches basic pistol and he told me ALL of their shooting is from the benchrest position. :banghead: I had to wonder to myself: what is it that his students are taking away from that class that has taught them how to conceal carry?
     
  18. rjohnson4405

    rjohnson4405 Member

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    25 yards, I'm sure, there is no shorter distance at the range he uses. I agree it's a huge disservice which is why I'm using someone else other than him.
     
  19. TechAlG

    TechAlG Member

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    Linda -- Being new to Ohio, and searching for a good class, would you be willing to recommend some? I am worried about paying for a class and having it be the NRA Basic Pistol class. I have had a PA CCP for 8 years (since the day I turned 21), and I have been shooting at least 20. My father was an LEO, so he made sure I was shooting every chance I got. I don't want to pay for a class which I have already taken, just so I can get an OH CCP. Your definition of the class sounds interesting.
     
  20. larry_minn

    larry_minn Member

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    Is it much different from any state/fed mandated training/certification? I can't recall when I have actually done EVERY hr of "required training" From EMT and many refreshers, Security, firearms, and many refreshers. Mn new CCWP requirements. Automobile, 15 pass van, semi driving. I doublt I have every completed the hrs. Class is 6pm to 10 pm two nights a week for (IIRC EMT was 100hrs) Well we never left later then 9:30 so ONE HR shorted every week.
    Last "required" firearms course. We were not only short hrs but instructor was lost much of time. (when he did not wave a loaded gun)

    I wouldn't sweat it but when you go for refresher ask questions before you sign up. If instructor not willing to spend extra time you find another.
     
  21. eagle45

    eagle45 Member

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    Some of the issues being discussed in this thread can be found in past discussions on Ohioans for Concealed Carry's website. There is also a handy link for finding an instructor in your area.

    You can also ask on OFCC's forum for recommendations for an instructor.

    http://www.ohioccw.org/
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2008
  22. TechAlG

    TechAlG Member

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    Thanks for the link. I stumbled upon that site earlier today, and am just completing the registration.
     
  23. Linda

    Linda Member

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    Come take my class. We've had students come from all over the state because of the great reputation we've built for ourselves. I'm in central Ohio, but had 2 guys from Fremont in the last class. Had several people from Sandusky, Cleveland, Dayton, among other corners of the state.

    You can also find a list of instructors through Buckeye Firearms website.
    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Ohio-CCW-Instructors
     
  24. TheBluesMan

    TheBluesMan Senior Member

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    Linda is right on the mark. If you're looking for a qualified instructor, ask what is covered in the class. Basic pistol alone does not meet the standards set forth in the Ohio CCW law. Both the NRA personal protection classes do.

    My classes use the Basic Pistol book, but like Linda said above, I also include holster selection, carry positions, conditional colors, use of force, how to conduct yourself during an encounter with a peace officer, mindset, etc. I like to include sections from the Personal Protection class that pertain to CCW.

    On the range, we shoot from 15 feet into a 10" paper plate. After qualification, I have students shoot from different positions, kneeling, behind cover, left-handed, from retention ready, etc.

    Take a look at the curriculum I've attached. That is much more than what you would learn in a typical Ohio CCW class, but it will help you quiz your prospective instructor to find out what you will be learning.

    Hope this helps. :)
     

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  25. rjohnson4405

    rjohnson4405 Member

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    Thanks everybody for the information and interest. I will certainly keep all this in mind as I register.

    Linda, what is the name of the group you offer the class with on Buckeye Firearms and in what county?

    -rjohnson4405
     
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