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CCW Law says gun must be "... of .45 caliber or smaller"

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow, Dec 1, 2008.

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  1. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    So is a .454 Casull of ".45 caliber or smaller"? Anyone know of any case law addressing this? Does the written designation control, or the actual bullet diameter control?

    The gov't could make the argument that the written designation controls, which allows ".45 acp", but not ".454 casull", because if the actual bullet diameter controls, then .45 acp would be out (since it's .451 or .452, not .450), and the legislature could NOT possibly have meant to rule out a "standard" defense cartridge such as .45 acp, and so IT must be ok, due to the actual designation.

    On the other hand, you could argue that it's the diameter that controls, but that BOTH .45 acp AND .45 colt or .454 casull are fine, since they both use the SAME bullets, and the legislature couldn't have intended to exclude the .45 acp. Anything .459 or smaller is basically ".45 caliber" and it has to be .460 or larger to be not ".45 or smaller", would be the argument.

    So that cuts both ways, creating a catch 22 circular logic (the fact that the legislature couldn't possibly have intended to exclude the .45 acp equally supports both extensions of logic, one of which concludes that a ".454 round" is illegal and one of which concludes that a ".454 round" is fine and dandy.)

    Carrying a .45-70 creates even more confusion, becuase it's NOT a .451/452 bullet (it's .458), but yet it IS a ".45 cal" designation. So is it illegal being .458 (not ".45 cal or smaller"), or if the designation controls, then it's fine. That would be extremely weird if the courts concluded that the designation controls, because then .45-70 WOULD be allowed (BFR anyone?), yet .454 casull would NOT be allowed.

    Do you think the cops would charge you in YOUR state if you carried a .454 casull? See, these things keep me up at night.... :p
     
  2. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    the .45 gap, .45 acp, .45 LC, .454 casull, and I believe the .460 - are all in fact .454 inches in diamter. (.45 caliber).
    The difference being that the casings are of different shape/length.
     
  3. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    .45 colt is clearly just in the same boat as .45 acp - it's a .45 cal designation AND it uses the same .452 bullet (unlike .45-70). So .45 colt is clearly legal anywhere that .45 acp is. It's just really hard to figure out whether the cops would try to claim that .454 is illegal or not. In my state, I would bet that they would NOT try to claim it's illegal, and arrest/revoke, but you never know, depending on the cop and the DA/County involved. .460 presents its own problem too, because it's not even .459 or less in designation, yet it too uses the same .452 diameter bullets.
     
  4. Eightball

    Eightball Member

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    Where is this, exactly?
     
  5. Blacksmoke

    Blacksmoke Member

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    You can assume they meant .45-0000.

    You could stretch a point and start packing a .455 Eley and see what they say...
     
  6. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Chances are likely that such a law could be struck down as arbitrary, especially with the recent Heller ruling, due to .45ACP being larger than .4500 diameter, and it being one of the most popular handgun cartridges in the country.
     
  7. Frog48

    Frog48 Member

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    +1

    What state is this law from? Seems pretty ridiculous.
     
  8. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    The law is basically saying, "Don't carry a Desert Eagle". There.
     
  9. John Wayne

    John Wayne Member

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    I doubt they're carrying calipers. If something was 4 thousands of an inch over the limit, I'd claim it was an out of spec round or due to sloppy manufacturing tolernaces.
     
  10. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    I'm still wondering just how I'd go about concealing my .45 -70 [.458] Trapdoor in the first place...
     
  11. 7.62X25mm

    7.62X25mm member

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    what state is staying this?

    Does anyone read english?

    This question has been asked now four times.
     
  12. dmazur

    dmazur Member

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    Well, I didn't do an exhaustive search, but I found Oklahoma apparently thought it necessary to try to restrict caliber -

    TITLE 21 § 1290.6. Prohibited ammunition
    PROHIBITED AMMUNITION
    Any concealed handgun when carried in a manner authorized by the
    provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Sections 1 through 26 of this act,
    when loaded with any ammunition which is either a restricted bullet as defined
    by Section 1289.19 of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes or is larger than .45
    caliber or is otherwise prohibited by law shall be deemed a prohibited weapon
    for purposes of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act. Any person violating the
    provisions of this section shall be punished for a criminal offense as provided by
    Section 1272 of title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes or any other applicable
    provision of law. In addition to any criminal prosecution for a violation of the
    provisions of this section, the licensee shall be subject to an administrative fine
    of Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), upon a hearing and determination by the
    Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation that the person is in violation of the
    provisions of this section.


    There wasn't any "nitpicky" definition of what exactly is meant by .45 caliber, so I imagine Oklahoma is trying to figure that out now. Maybe someone's been charged with violating this law?

    An aside: Why on earth is it necessary to limit caliber? There is an interesting 1911 variation that fires something called the .50GI, if I'm remembering correctly. Not legal in Oklahoma, I'd bet.
     
  13. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    Just got back (busy) - yep, Okla.
     
  14. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Yep, pretty much sounds like the "Oklahoma Desert Eagle Limitation Treaty" or something.

    Very odd.
     
  15. Matt-J2

    Matt-J2 Member

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    Of course, one could still carry the Desert Eagle in .44mag, if they wanted.
     
  16. BBQLS1

    BBQLS1 Member

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    LOL, I can't imagine CCW .454 Casull!
     
  17. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    Speaking of how they wrote the law, they only wrote in 2 digits. What ever the diameter of the bullet is out BEYOND those two digits is not covered by the law, and therefore, not prohibited by the law.

    If it uses .46 caliber or larger, it's a firearm prohibited for Concealed Carry.

    Woody
     
  18. Highland Ranger

    Highland Ranger Member

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    I don't like it, but I have to think that is a nod at defining what is reasonable to be concealed.

    Let's face it, the DE's, or S&W X, or the big Rugers are not practical weapons to conceal unless you are 7 feet tall and 500 pounds.

    Is open carry legal there?

    Can anyone offer insight as to what happened and the reasoning behind the law?
     
  19. Maelstrom

    Maelstrom Member

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    Nice try, but .45 is actually just .4500000000000000000000 truncated to two places. I would say, technically, the .45 ACP is banned.
     
  20. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    Yeah, but we're not talking math here. We're talking law.

    Woody
     
  21. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Why don't we just email or call the Oklahoma Attorney General's office and ask them? Ask if it's a question of popular nomenclature/designation (.45ACP) or actual bullet diameter (0.452", thus banned).
     
  22. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    An overzealous DA might try to persuade a jury to disregard common usage and agree with nitpicking about exact dimensions. Odds are that nominal dimensions and common usage would prevail

    And, I'd imagine that many CHL folks and LEOs in Oklahoma are carrying some variety of forty-five-caliber handgun.

    Which segues into a vision of this overzealous DA ordering the arrest of toters of oversized handguns: "But sir, our entire department carries those!"
     
  23. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    I'm not among them, Art. I don't carry one. I carry two.

    Woody
     
  24. Izaak Walton

    Izaak Walton Member

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    Nice try, but .45 is actually just .4500000000000000000000 truncated to two places. I would say, technically, the .45 ACP is banned.
    Yeah, but we're not talking math here. We're talking law.

    Woody


    Ain't that the truth.
    Math in most cases makes sense.
     
  25. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    This is the part I don't get. Why would you want to carry something like a 454 or a 460 around town? Do you have lots of angry wildebeest roaming the streets? Those are big game hunting, and wilderness defense loads. I would no sooner carry those around town than I would carry around a Thomson Contender in .308
    If you can't feel safe carrying something that is 45 cal or smaller, then you likely live in a war zone and should consider slinging your AK over your shoulder. If thats not the case and you just live out in the backwoods, you can just open carry that beastly revolver. I can't imagine finding room in my pants for 50 oz of steel.
     
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