Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

CCW not honored

Discussion in 'Legal' started by highdesert, Aug 25, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. highdesert

    highdesert Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    I don't want to start a thread bashing California gun laws. I don't want to be responsible for anyone getting carpal tunnel syndrome :)

    Last week I noticed in the newspaper that the local fair (Antelope Valley Fair, CA) is using metal detectors this year. To save myself and my family awkward moments at the gate, I called their security office to inquire about the "correct" procedure for getting in with a CCW permit. The conversation was polite, but as you can guess, I was told "no weapons unless you're law enforcement... this is a state facility."

    California, despite issuing few CCW permits, is not very restrictive on where you can carry. The main restrictions are: picket lines, courthouses, places that do majority business in alcohol, and private property (if the owner objects). Unlike some states, you're not barred from public gatherings, banks, or schools.

    I informed her that, though I'm no legal expert, a "state facility" (her words) has to honor a state permit. At that, she backed off a little and said she'd prefer I didn't bring it because there are going to be lots of people there. (I guess she thought I plan to use my handgun at the shooting gallery or something :scrutiny:?)

    Then she said to call back the following morning after she talked it over with the Sheriff's dept (LA county).

    Meanwhile I got in touch with California Pistol and Rifle Association, who put me in touch with their lawyer. He responded right away, saying it has been a controversial issue in the past and has mainly to do with whether the fair is public or privately run. San Diego had a lawsuit over this issue

    Today my follow-up with the head of security revealed pretty much what I thought. LASD says no CCWs (except LEO) and if I don't agree I can call them to discuss. She said it's no different than the restriction on a courthouse. I informed the lady that courthouses are specifically prohibited by law, whereas public gatherings are not.

    Anyone else have stories of having your CCW being turned away in cases that didn't seem legal? Although I'm a strong believer that we're all safer when law abiding citizens are armed, I wouldn't be half as torqued over this if it didn't look like a case of law enforcement making up the rules as they so desire. Call me naiive, I like laws to be written.

    By the way, if you live in California and don't belong to CRPA, you should join. http://www.crpa.org

    highdesert
     
  2. bg

    bg Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    903
    Location:
    When you find out, let me know..
  3. highdesert

    highdesert Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    No, good thought.
     
  4. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,277
    Location:
    MA :(
    but its not really a "government " establishment if you have to pay to enter right? (assuming theres a fee to get in) i mean you dont pay to enter a courthouse. keep calling and ask for some official form that has labled it as a government thing. i wouldnt count on getting to carry at the fair. but atleast make them prove, or waste time trying to prove that they have some form of logic
     
  5. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,899
    Location:
    Tejas Norte
    Isn't your reason for having a CCW the fact that you hang out in the desert miles from law enforcement or cell phone access? Maybe that's someone from a different forum now that I think about it. Anyway, I think someone could argue that going to the AV fair isn't the same sort of risk, especially if the fairgrounds has metal detectors.

    Personally, I wouldn't go to any fair that used metal detectors on me... I don't like being treated like a criminal... but it wouldn't be a "call the lawyers" type of event.
     
  6. Guns_and_Labs

    Guns_and_Labs Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Messages:
    517
    Location:
    Hidden Away in the East Bay, CA
    I recall from a couple of years ago that the Sonoma County Fair also had metal detectors. I showed my CCW, they noted the name and issuing agency, and let me go in. At the Alameda County Fair, they didn't even note it down.

    Inconsistency is the only consistent theme in CA.
     
  7. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,457
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    The line from comedian Chris Rock would apply here:

    "Never go to a party with metal detectors. Sure it's safe INSIDE, but what about all those ******** outside with guns? They know you don't got one..."
     
  8. highdesert

    highdesert Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    Ed,

    You probably have me confused with someone else, although I do live in the desert :)

    I'm of the school of thought that CCW is for those of us non-criminals who enjoy living but don't have a taxpayer funded security detail follow us around. In other words, pretty much anyone. A desert hermit probably has less need of CCW than an urban dweller, although in my book he has no less right to CCW. In my view, more people around = more chance of being around people who would rape your wife, kill you, steal your daughter if they had a chance.

    As for "calling the lawyers," I agree it's not the biggest battle that needs fighting in California right now, but I'm still going to ask a lawyer if, for no other reason, my own education. An educated citizen is always a thorn in the side of government overreach.

    Hoppy,

    Good point. It's actually quite hard to tell whether it's public or private. I trolled their website and couldn't tell. I'm only going by the security officials response--which she thought was a good defense for barring CCW--that they're a state entitiy.

    highdesert
     
  9. highdesert

    highdesert Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    Matthew,

    Good call. Actually in past years, it has been the parking lot where the problems occur.

    highdesert
     
  10. Wastemore

    Wastemore Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2005
    Messages:
    201
    Simple- Don't go to the AV fair.
     
  11. Larry Ashcraft

    Larry Ashcraft Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    11,484
    Location:
    Home of Heroes, Pueblo, CO, USA
    They have the same policy at the Colorado State Fair (which incidentally, starts today). Its supposed to be about "preventing gang violence", but the security people have to be politically correct and wand everybody, lest they be accused of "profiling"

    Last time I went, they tried to confiscate my Kershaw pocket knife. I was forty-something, for cryin' out loud, with three kids in tow.

    That's the last time I went to the Fair, and it's just a few blocks down the street from my shop.
     
  12. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,809
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Larry,

    Is it actually illegal to carry on the fairgrounds under state law or is this some feelgood BS violation of your rights?
     
  13. highdesert

    highdesert Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    Don't go is definitely an option.

    Car Knocker: there's definitely not a specific provision of CA law preventing CCW at the Fair (i.e. there's no language addressing public gatherings, etc).

    The only way it can be legal is if the Fair is on private property, but according to the security folks it is public property.

    So yes, as far as I can tell it's BS. But I don't want to argue legality at the gate while being worked over by LA Sheriff's Dept, so I probably won't go.

    Edit to add: Sorry Car Knocker, didn't realize you were talking about CO laws.
     
  14. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Messages:
    2,880
    Location:
    TX
    You should email the state admin (jonm) for California at www.packing.org. He may have some ideas for you.
     
  15. Gordon Fink

    Gordon Fink Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,322
    Location:
    California
    There are metal detectors at the county fair? Are you kidding?

    I live in Orange County. The last time I checked, there were no metal detectors at the fair or at the county courthouse for that matter.

    ~G. Fink
     
  16. Larry Ashcraft

    Larry Ashcraft Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    11,484
    Location:
    Home of Heroes, Pueblo, CO, USA
    Car Knocker,

    Under CO CCW law, if a place (such as a courthouse) is posted AND metal detectors are being used, it is unlawful to carry there.

    The fairgrounds is posted year round, but if I have business there not during the State Fair, I ignore the signs.
     
  17. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,013
    Don't mean to highjack this thread, but does anyone know if there are restrictions on CCW at the Texas State Fair?
     
  18. 'Card

    'Card Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,506
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    I can see where fairgrounds might be a kind of legal grey area, actually.

    (Not trying to defend any anti-gun crap, just playing devil's advocate here)

    The way most county and state fairs are run anymore, you've got some kind of private company that contracts with the local government to manage the fair. In effect, those companies are renting the property (fairgrounds) from the government, then they do the rides, concessions, etc. - and the state (or county) gets a cut, right?

    Point being that if you have a private company renting government property, then the rules may not be the same as what would apply if the government was running the government property. Make sense?
     
  19. mec

    mec Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    4,459
    "Don't mean to highjack this thread, but does anyone know if there are restrictions on CCW at the Texas State Fair."

    I don't know what their stance is at this time but ccw should be legal. Right after the law passed some politicians in Dallas announced that they were going to declare the state fair an amusement park - where licensees are barred from carrying. They had not read the law. There is a very detailed definition in the law defining amusement parks and the state fair failed to meet several of them. I suppose if the state fair is a private entity, they could post the criminal trespass sign but if it is a government entity, the law has been amended to forbid them from dishornoring the licenses.
     
  20. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,013
    Amusement parks still have to be properly posted. I sent the fair an email, I'll report when I hear.

    Highdesert, it stinks when people just start making up the rules. I agree that you should keep pushing this as far as you can, if for no other reason than to educate yourself, and others. Maybe those you speak with will have to check it out if you push it, rather than just give their knee-jerk reaction. I fully expect the first response from the Texas State Fair to be "nope, you can't carry." I'll of course ask for a legal citation. If they cannot give me one, then I'll take my weapon and see if they have the proper sign posted. Although, I think they have metal detectors, so I'll have to ask about the proper procedure first. Should be interesting.
     
  21. stevelyn

    stevelyn Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2003
    Messages:
    3,290
    Location:
    Fairbanksan in Aleutian Hell
    I don't go places where I'm not welcome.
     
  22. mec

    mec Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    4,459
    "Point being that if you have a private company renting government property, then the rules may not be the same as what would apply if the government was running the government property. Make sense?"

    Makes perfect sense
     
  23. BB62

    BB62 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Messages:
    367
    Location:
    Ohio
    Hey, they do have such a thing in ********** as lawsuits for illegal arrest, don't they?

    Hell yes, I'd go - let them arrest me.

    I suggest you also contact Jim March, a member on THR.


    BB62
     
  24. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,899
    Location:
    Tejas Norte
    Yeah, as I started to write I realized I was thinking of a post in a California CCW forums site in their San Bernardino subforum... I then figured I might as well go on talkin. :D I've got no problems with CCW for whatever reason, anywhere. I do laugh sometimes... but it is all in fun.

    Do they have your name? The fair security people I mean. If not, or if you don't think they would've made a little "watch list" with your name on it... just go to the fair. You won't be braking any laws, and perhaps when they see that normal people are trying to enter with guns they'll change their views. Or perhaps the guards doing the screening will look at your CCW (show it to them when they come to screen you) and let you through on their own. It might cost you the price of parking though.

    Californian gun owners have thought themselves into being an underclass. Everyone fears admitting they own. On top of that they assume failure... like the microstamping thing... the first response is, "Will this take away what I already have? If not I don't care." The second is, "I'd better start buying up all the old stock so once this passes I'll have what I need." :banghead: Don't perpetuate that mistake by assuming a negative after you've gone to the effort to carry legally. Next time, don't call for the procedures... if there is no law barring you, just go. Let them say "no" to a polite and smiling guy with a license.

    Or don't... I'm not the boss of you. :D

    Not to jack your thread, but: Know anything about AVGC? Other clubs in the area? More to the point, know anything about hunting or know any hunters? I've never been hunting in my life, would like to start, and am looking for anyone that can set me straight. Taking a Hunter Safety Course "down the hill" on Sunday....
     
  25. crazed_ss

    crazed_ss Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,652
    Location:
    Sunny San Diego
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page