CCW When would you draw???

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Davionmaximus, Feb 2, 2009.

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  1. BBQLS1

    BBQLS1 Member

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    Some of you may not like it, but beatcop made some important points to consider.

    It's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, but remember that you may still be judged by twelve.

    As far as the old guy who can't really fight like he could in his younger days.....That would be a disparity of force.
     
  2. Kat144

    Kat144 Member

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    I've wondered this too...as it seems to have been implied in some articles I've read that if pulling a gun and saying "get away from me" if feeling threatened is not kosher--that is, if you don't actually need to shoot him at the moment, you shouldn't touch the gun. I'd far rather be able to end situations before I know if the guy's about to actually attack me rather than just saying or looking like he will--i.e. I don't want to have to wait until the knife is out or he's running at me or has already grabbed me-- (but then, I say this as an average-height, 112-pound woman who looks ten years younger than she is--which means I don't even look old enough to vote, let alone be able to fight off an attacker. So any man advancing on me seems threatening, as in the case someone posted about someone getting out of their car in traffic and coming up to his car to yell at him--that would scare me into at least being ready to pull the gun if I told the guy to back off and he didn't. I suppose if I were a guy, 6'4" and 250 pounds it'd be different)
     
  3. Kentak

    Kentak Member

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    That makes no sense at all as a hard and fast rule. One that could lead to personal disaster.

    K
     
  4. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Probably not, but this whole idea of "if you draw it you have to shoot it" is, well, asinine.
     
  5. Leanwolf

    Leanwolf Member

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    Given the action of the teenager, how he was dressed, apparently following, etc., then upon seeing Dav. Max. starting to raise his shirt and immediately heading in the opposite direction, leads me to believe that the teenager was "in the life" out on the streets.

    He immediately recognized that motion by Dav. Max. and knew exactly what it meant. Otherwise, he'd have just continued on and passed by, going on down the sidewalk.

    But he was street wise. Gun! 99% of honest people would not have recognized that motion.

    As for an honest, law abiding citizen taking a punch or two before then getting into a fist fight with his assailant, there not only is a possibility of disparity in size as a factor, there is also very importantly "disparity of ability."

    There are many, many "bandits" out on the street who are normal in size, who can terribly injure the average person with a few very swift, vicious "punches" before the average person even knows what's happening.

    They know how to fight without caring if they get hurt, and fight often. They are very good at it.

    If BEAT COP is a sworn peace officer, then he knows how to fight in a down and dirty situation. No holds barred. That's how cops are taught to fight when things go south with a suspect.

    Most men and women, however, do not know how to fight a person who has that ability to "street fight." Therefore, allowing a bad guy to perhaps seriously -- or in some cases -- fatally injure you, before drawing your firearm, is nonsensical to me.

    Also, in most cases, an attack will be uncompromisingly vicious. The bad guy's object is to overwhelm you immediately. Most people who CCW are not capable of being viciously assaulted, badly injured, and then finally, being able to drag out a pistol and retaliate.

    Dav. Max. reacted properly, given what he wrote, in my opinion.

    L.W.
     
  6. Yosemite Sam

    Yosemite Sam Member

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    I can't stress enough how true this is. This isn't some drunken fight over a girl that starts with yelling insults, then pushing, then finally a punch. What happens in reality happens so fast you could easily be knocked unconscious before you realize you were being attacked.

    I'm new to THR so I'm not comfortable opening up TOO much right now, but I'm the victim of gang violence. I was 18, first semester of college in a big city (Cleveland.. the attack happened in East Cleveland. at night. by myself.), and being from a rural town, I was very naive. LONG STORY short, I was ambushed from behind right on the sidewalk by 3 young men.

    The attack happened without warning or conversation. Usually there's a "Hey, do you have any change?" or "Do you have any gas money? My car ran out of gas." Not this time. My first sign I was being followed was the scuffling of feet about 3 feet behind me (too late). As I turned my head it was IMMEDIATELY met with a sucker punch to the right eye. My right eye went blurry and it was the first time in my life I had been punched that hard. Depth perception was gone. Then all 3 started attacking, and within 5 seconds I had already been punched in the head who knows how many times. I ended up with my first concussion.

    I already had a mental plan in place because of a strong gut feeling that something very bad was about to happen. I told myself, "If I get jumped, I will run to the middle of the street and yell for help and try to get a ride in a car." Because of that mental preparation, I executed my plan and I believe that plan saved me from going to the ground (which would have resulted in my death). I managed to stay on my feet the whole time, but they still circled me in the middle of traffic at a red light and continue bashing my head in.

    It's a miracle I got away, as "retreating" was my only choice, but it turns out the direction I was running was only deeper into the ghetto and not the right way!

    Asked God with all seriousness, "God, is this how I am going to die?"

    Tried a bunch of cars at the red light. I pounded on driver's side windows yelling at the top of my lungs for help. This lady SCREAMED and waved her hands (maybe thought I was trying to carjack her? Yeah right. She was a coward.) and then ran the red light to not help me. I tried a semi, but the light turned green. Tried who knows how many cars. Still getting punched and surrounded.

    Ended up praying and getting saved by this car that appeared out of nowhere. I entered and the guy had a Jamaiican accent and was smoking a joint "Come in mahn, I'll help you." "Oh thank God, I was getting attacked!" I said. He turned on the dome light and pulled down the mirror and said "Ya mahn, it looks like they jacked you pretty bad." My left eye was the only eye that was working, but that was the first time I saw how bloody my face was. He said he was from St. Thomas, Virgin Islands. He drove me deeper in the ghetto into a residential area, and I started fearing I got in the wrong car and he was gonna kill me. "Where are you taking me?" I asked. "To a safe place, mahn." Holy **** safe place my ***! He opened up his center console and started fumbling around, I was thinking "GUN! If he pulls out a gun, my plan is to open the door and roll out into the street." He was getting a new CD out for some raggae or jazz music. :laugh: I asked him to take me to the hospital ER instead, and he drove past the hospital. I kept going ***? He was taking me to another better hospital a half mile away. I just said "Forget the hospital, my dorm is that way." And he dropped me off. Gave me his card, and I went home. The next mistake I made that night? After calling the police, I just went to bed. Took some ibuprofen and went to bed. Later learned that if you sleep on a concussion you can go into a coma and die.

    Learned a lot of lessons that night.

    I swear this story is 100% true, and that's only the short version.

    Point is, a true violent attack will happen so fast it'll leave your head spinning (or in a concussion, like me). I may be young and have lived less life than a lot of y'all, but I'd say most people have never been viciously attacked, so I wanted to share that life experience with you guys.

    I'm a brand new CCW and am barely 25 years old, but damn if I'll never be a victim again. I see nothing wrong with drawing in the OP's situation. That guy was up to no good. A reasonable person would feel fear, and I feel that brandishing is justified.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  7. coloradokevin

    coloradokevin Member

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    No offense, but that seems like a really bad way to look at this!

    A more appropriate mindset might be to say: "If I draw, I've already made the decision that I'm willing to shoot".

    I think a lot of folks who find themselves on the losing end of an encounter with their concealed weapon never had the mindset to be carrying that weapon in the first place. In essence, when I draw my weapon on a person (and I've done this more times than I can count in the course of my duties) I already know that I'm willing to use that weapon if the issue is pushed to that point. But, it would be reckless for me to say that I would automatically fire my weapon whenever I drew it on someone!


    Glad you made it out of that one alive! I grew up in Cleveland, and there are some really ROUGH areas to be found among the east side ghettos (at least there were back when I was there). I had a few close calls down there myself in my youth, and have had some friends with experiences that were much like yours! In fact, one of my closest friends from growing up still lives in the Cleveland area, and was driving through the 'hood on the way to a job site last year when someone decided to empty a gun in his direction. It is certainly no joke when it happens to you...
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  8. ravonaf

    ravonaf Member

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    I just took a CCW class last night and that is exactly how they taught it (Virginia law). The instructor was a retired cop.
     
  9. ravonaf

    ravonaf Member

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    duplicate post
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  10. Davionmaximus

    Davionmaximus Member

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    Lessons I took away from this experience

    Just to fill in some of the blanks for folks...
    I am Average Joe. 5'11 175lbs. Pushing 40. Balding (lol) Fit, I work out five days a week. Have not been in a fight since the 8th grade. Got my butt kicked in one punch then.
    The charactor I encountered was around 6'3" and I can speculate was around 180lbs due to the heavy coat. His sholder was almost at my eye level when he "brushed past me" in the store"

    I agree w/ most people I am not going to take a punch. I am not sure how I would react. Probably not the way I did in the 8th grade...

    I try my best to avoid conflict. I don't know how I feel about the suggestion of giving the thug a bad look as we were exiting the store. I have found that to lead to more conflicts than to simply leave. Just an opinion. Kinda like looking a mean dog in the eyes... sets 'em off. Gives them the mental justification to get hostile. Thugs seem to love that...

    I did like the suggestion I got from a friend of mine....

    While he was following us out of the store to simply "adjust" my shirt a bit just to give him a momentary peek at what he was about to have to deal with...

    But that can cut two ways... you just have to judge the situation at hand...

    The big lessons I got from all of this are as follows...

    1) Always carry. We were on a simple errand to the drug store we have been to hundreds of times.

    2) If someone gives you that "feeling" trust your instincts. DO NOT dismiss it. God gives you instinct for a reason.

    3) Carry a round in the chamber. I did not have one in the pipe. I was carrying my XD 45compact in a belly band. I can work the action very fast but this all went down much faster than I would have ever had expected.
    (please lets not get into an arguement of which is the better carry condition... I know I know....):banghead:

    4) Learn your state laws on self defence. Study, study, study. Knowing what you can and can't legally do may save your life. Know the differance in advance between overreaction and justified action.

    I know I worded the OP wrong. I personally do not perscribe to the thought that if you draw you MUST fire. My personal belief is that if I must draw (Lord willing I never have to fully draw) and take aim.. wait. I will know in just a second what the next move will be. The act of drawing the weapon is in the eyes of Texas as I understand it not deadly force. It is the last step before. That being said it should be avoided and used as a LAST resort when all else fails. In our situation, there was no way to retreat without breaking out into a full run. I was not about to run and leave my wife. She can't run fast with scoliosis (probably not spelled correctly)
    All I could do was start to raise my shirt.

    Had I been forced to draw and take aim I am sure in just a split second I would have known what the next move would have to be. Hopefully at that point the thug would disengage.

    Always remember... if you HAVE to pull the trigger it will cost you a minimum of 20k. Even if you are justified just in attorney fees. Not to mention time lost from your life defending yourself. Still, better to face 12 than be carried out by six.. to quote an earlier post.

    And if you must draw be the first to call the police and let them know. It will save you a TON of grief.

    Again.. I thank all of you for your responses

    Davinmaximus
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  11. beatcop

    beatcop Member

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    lanternlad1
    Lanternlad1, I generally calibrate my advice to the audience.

    A basic scenario was presented that would have gotten a lengthy response if it would have been appreciated, but rather than beating a horse that has been beaten a thousand times on this board, I kept it rather basic.

    Yes, there a lot of things that were left out: fighting experience, offender- subject factors, injuries, proximity, ability or duty to retreat, intent, local laws, etc.

    Yes, I'm a LEO, firearms instructor, use of force instructor, less-lethal instructor, deployed military.... had a Red Ryder, but who cares.

    I'm trying to distill a pile of training and actual experience into some advice that will keep you from going to jail on a manslaughter charge. Yes, my advice is going to be more conservative...I've seen people arrested for shooting someone over a "simple fist fight". Do you want a black eye from some punk or from your cell-mate? I'm not going to debate Use of Force with you, but I will only ask that you do a little more reading on the subject.

    Do what you want...I'm not preaching gospel, only tossing out a few nuggets to think about.

    This is what a Tactical Internet After Action Review is all about...:)
     
  12. Kat144

    Kat144 Member

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    Holy sh*t. No wonder so many people hesitate to pull the trigger.
     
  13. Dokkalfar

    Dokkalfar Member

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    yep. and criminals dont really care about that, if they get caught they're gonna be in the tank for a long time anyway. 20k doesnt matter to them. so they dont really have the same hesitating that most civilians do. they dont also have the same hesitation to kill/harm someone that a civilian would have either.
     
  14. Duke of Doubt

    Duke of Doubt member

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    Rather than a "hard look," never underestimate the power of a grin. Not a big goofy grin, a contemptuous grin, or even a spy film grin; I mean a genuine, albeit tight, smile that he can see, while you look briefly into his eyes. Now he knows you're onto him, that you can recognize him later, and that for whatever reason you aren't intimidated or threatened.

    It works. It even gets you a little cred, earned or unearned.
     
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