Chain fire in a tubular magazine

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Dr T, Sep 20, 2022.

  1. Dr T

    Dr T Member

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    I am not inclined to load a round with a spitzer bullet into a gun with a tubular magazine, even as a single round load. However, I wonder what happens if a chain fire occurs in a magazine.

    After watching this video



    I wonder about how the containment of the magazine tube contributes.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    I dunno, but these guys tried hard to set off a chain fire and were unable to do so


     
  3. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Two things that i wonder about....

    in the first one there was nothing containing the primer or the bullet in the casing.
    Stuff those into a tubular magazine with one in front and one in back with no easy way for the bullet or primer to pop out, and It'll probably create a more serious pressure spike.

    The second one i think the stack of bullets is staying pretty much together the entire time.
    Id expect a detonation from a bullet tip into a primer would be during the cycling of the action, when the whole stack slams to a stop, especially if there's a gap between the cartridges as they're coming to rest.

    Also those 556 rounds are usually loaded with unusually hard primers to reduce the chance of a slam fire .


    Those things just popped into my head while i was skimming the videos, they may have addressed them but i didn't watch all the way thru.
     
  4. Dr T

    Dr T Member

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    Well, this



    and this


    imply that if it occurs, it will not be pretty. It also makes me wonder about the wisdom of using a round nose bullet in a tubular magazine.
     
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  5. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    5.56 ammo is loaded with small rifle primers having 0.025"cup thickness.

    Large rifle primers of every stripe are also furnished with primer cup thickness of 0.025" thickness.

    Under ordinary circumstances, the chances of chain-firing a column of rounds in a tubular magazine - irrespective of shape of bullet tip - is very low.

    If you are anxious about shooting pointy bullets in your 30-30, just load two in the gun. One in the chamber, and one in the tube. I've never seen a deer stand still for a good second shot after I missed with the first shot. Every one hit the hyper-warp button after the first errant shot.


    High Jump1.jpg
     
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  6. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    It is a very, very rare occurrence, but it is a known occurrence. Othias at C&rsenal mentioned at least one late-19th century military rifle trial (I can't recall which specific trial offhand) where this occurred and caused tubular magazine designs to be eliminated from consideration.

    Even a remote possibility of this happening is not something you'd want in a military rifle. The Lebel cartridge head features an annular rim that channels bullet tips away from primers; the Remington Model 14 pump rifle uses a spirally stamped magazine tube to accomplish this.

    LebelCaseHead.jpg Remington14SpiralTube.jpg

    The contemporary solution is Hornady's Leverevolution bullet using a polymer point of approximately gummybear hardness:

    https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/leverevolution#!/
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2022
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  7. Laphroaig

    Laphroaig Member

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    I'm not trying to start a debate, but Remington's 117 gr. 25-35 ammo is loaded with a round nose. For us handloaders, the Hornady #2550 RN is the only suitable 117 gr. jacketed bullet that I know of. I'm pretty comfortable with both but would prefer Winchester FP factory ammo or a 117 gr. FP component if there was one.
     
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  8. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I understand that the risks are small, but so is the reward. Pointed bullets at 30-30 (or any similar cartridge traditionally loaded in tube magazines) velocities and at typical ranges just don't help much.
     
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  9. Dr T

    Dr T Member

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    It is quite likely that COMMERCIAL ammo produced for use in a tubular magazine is safe. But the Winchester 150 gr RNHP 30-30 round has always made me a little nervous...And then there are those RN 30 Carbine bullets that are about 100 gr that are so tempting to load into a 30-30 case.
     
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  10. Hugger-4641

    Hugger-4641 Member

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    I'll have to re-creat my test in video and post it, but many years ago I tested this possibility.
    I took two rounds with primers, but no powder, taped them together nose to tip. 150gr rn winchester with powder removed is what they were. I placed them standing up inside a piece of D.O.M on a metal table, and hit them on the nose with a ball peen hammer. I could not make them detonate.
    I think this time I'll try some 110gr hp and 165 Spitzer as well.
    Not sure how soon I'll get this done with Archery season opening this Sat, but keep your eye out for a thread about this coming in the near future.
     
  11. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    I wish I could find the photos of a gun, I believe a Marlin 336, that had been fired using spire point bullets in the cartridges in the magazine and the mag blew up. That was in 2000 or 2001. I found the photos and the article on the internet. I can’t find it now.
    The article mentioned some injury to the shooter but I don’t recall details.

    I got my first lever gun, a Marlin 336 .30-30 in ‘92. I have always been adamant about flat nosed bullets in my reloads. I recall buying some Remington ammo and shooting it that had round nosed soft point bullets, but it truly made me nervous. I did shoot the full box of them, but that was it. Perhaps a little overly cautious, but this little devil called Murphy rides my left shoulder…
     
  12. film495

    film495 Member

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    no idea, but I'd assume it would most likely blow the cap off the end of the magazine tube. the rounds aren't in a chamber, so - the pressure is going to go somewhere, maybe it will split the tube, but maybe not. might just blow the end cap off and how do you do?
     
  13. BlueHeelerFl

    BlueHeelerFl Member

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    When I was younger and didn't know any better I would fire a full tube of 38 spl FMJ RN through my 1894. Never had a issue, but I might have just been lucky.

    Now if I fire those rounds I load one in the chamber and then one in the tube as the other poster suggested.
     
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  14. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Many, many years ago I set off a 12 ga round with a BB. It wasn’t very dramatic a little smoke and the shell looked similar to a blow up capacitor (paper hull).

    I have also heat induced, ignited rounds that pop like corn not imparting much energy.

    I am cautious enough though to not use pointy bullets in tube fed firearms though, where the gas can be contained to build up pressure.
     
  15. David Hoback

    David Hoback Member

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    Honestly, the only worry I really have of tube mags is bullet set back. Set back is so dangerous & has been the culprit of many KB’s in the past.
     
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  16. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    I checked last night and it was during the British trails to replace the Martini-Henry (a little past the 16 minute mark). The detonation occurred in a Winchester 1876.

     
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  17. David Hoback

    David Hoback Member

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    Dave… did you just Quote yourself?? :)

    That is absolutely brilliant! :thumbup:
     
  18. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    I pretty much exclusively use round nose bullets in 30-30 and 35 Remington.

    I am satisfied with how they perform in the tubular magazine.
     
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  19. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    Yup -- recursive isn't just cursing more than once. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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  20. Griffen

    Griffen Member

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    I suspect a chain fire is extremely rare as recoil is not nearly like a hammer strike. That being said, I use round nose cartridges or FTX bullets in my reloads in tube fed rifles. I have several 1892’s in 357, 45 Colt, and 30-30, and an 1886 Winchester 45-70. Never had an issue through thousands of rounds.
     
  21. jak67429

    jak67429 Member

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    I did see a marlin 336 setoff the rounds in the tub mag. guy loaded pointed bullets intended for a contender carbine in it and accidentally dropped it from about 8 feet onto a rock. all of the rounds in the tube went off, the handguard was gone the tube was destroyed. Surprisingly the rest of the gun was undamaged except some scratches. Had a local smith look at he replaced the mag and handguard.
     
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  22. David Hoback

    David Hoback Member

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    Really? Where did you see this? Was it an intentional test? For this to happen, the sun, moon & stars need to align, LOL! Seriously, no one has been able to duplicate this without DIRECTLY firing a projectile at the first shell’s primer. Here is a video where they try everything! The force generated in this video is many, many times that of an 8’ fall. And still, it would not happen.


    I’m going to say, I believe this phenomenon is yet again one of those, “I heard it from someone who heard it from someone’s uncle!” And overtime the “I HEARD”, becomes “I SAW THIS GUY!” More Interwebs fantasy.
     
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  23. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    "Handloader" or "Rifle" did extensive tests like this. The conclusion was they could not initiate a chain fire, and when a cartridge was deliberately fired in the magazine tube, the pressure blew out the primer and the side of the case, with the bullet left in the case mouth. This confirms what we see when attempting to burn loaded cartridges (as in a house fire.) The primers will pop and come out, the cases will rupture and the cases will remain in the case neck.
     
  24. N555

    N555 Member

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    The original 1894 30-30 patent shows kind of round nose bullets being used.
     
  25. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Don't trust them primers. They are not light switches that predictably turn on and off, and if you think of them that way, one day, you gonna find different.

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...232052308.html

    By Eric Pfeiffer, Yahoo! News | The Sideshow – Tue, Jun 12, 2012


     
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