Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by jstert, Aug 5, 2019.
I live about 45 minutes from the El Paso Walmart. I know the area well; we are one large border community. I went to one of the vigils and held a sign for one of the victims, Juan Velasquez. He turned out to be a grandfather that stood in front of his wife and grandchildren, saving them. When I finally heard his story on the news, I broke down in tears. It's stunning how much this affected me. The pain is very deep. I was and am quite angry that nobody stopped the shooter.
Today, I talked to another CCW person who did verify that a good number of CCW people were carrying in Walmart that day but did not engage the shooter. I understand why people do not want to engage, but given the incredible amount of pain I see in my community, I vowed last week that I would engage. I cannot view it differently. I want to know what kind of training I could receive--maybe a Walmart active shooter training?
Look for the compendium on active shooter response. For central TX, a drive from El Paso, krtraining.com
Most concealed carriers have little training.
No, the module for that is a joke. We of course had to watch it again after the attack. The one good thing it teaches is to get customers to safety, and several did just that.
Good lord if you can't unholster a firearm and do your duty when some guy is walking around the Walmart you're in murdering families, you're a poor excuse for a human being.
If he doesn’t clearly identify himself then it is game on when he points his gun at me.
Until the cops shoot you because they do not know who is who. If the police have no legal duty to protect you, why is someone else's duty as opposed to those being shot at?
You wouldn't understand.
There have been multiple examples of mass shootings were a permit holder intervened. Most recently, an off duty firefighter held an 20 year old idiot, who walked into Walmart in full tactical gear while OC'ing an AR, at gun point until police arrived. Might not be an active shooter situation, but the fire fighter didn't know that at the time.
Furthermore, you're basing your opinion on that one example at a Walmart which wasn't a gun free zone. Guestimating that 99% of these shootings happen in gun free zones... I will say that, IMHO, most permit holders, including myself, would run away from instead of towards gun fire. I also sure that if permit holder was one of the people who was actually in the crosshairs of the shooter, they'd probably would defend themselves rather than cower in the fetal position waiting to be killed.
Like it or not, you are your brother's keeper.
Well this sorry excuse of a human being is looking for the first exist, or I'm barricading myself behind something until law enforcement arrives.
Which means you need to actually be able to account for every shot you fire.
In a mass hysteria situation your chances of being able to get a clean shot without endangering the innocent are quite frankly near zilch. It is far better to help others to safety and act as a guard for them and those in your immediate area then to think you can go hunting. You duty is to keep your gun holstered as along as possible and direct traffic.
My upbringing, my Marine Corps training and my conscience all lead me to a different conclusion as to what my duty is in a situation like that one.
Then explain it so one can understand. I am not leo, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
You're your brother's keeper, like it or not. If that doesn't do it well enough, then I can't.
That's fine but it is unseemly to attempt to denigrate those of us who do not wear that pretty blue/red/yellow suit with the big "S" on it under our every day clothes. Some of us don't even own a cape.
So how many inner city youths do you foster or have adopted? After all, if you are your brother's keeper, it would make sense to start there so they do not end up dead by the age of 20.
We can go down the rabbit hole here, but we won't as it is not allowed.
You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine.
No one is saying you're not; but do not disparage those who have a different opinion merely because it does fit YOUR personal view of how to handle this.
Then please accept my sincere apology for offending you or anyone else.
It's all good, no apology necessary - a good debate helps keep everyone's views in perspective.
Another thing to consider, if you run away or herd people out an exit without attempting to stop the shooter, what makes you think he (or she) won't come after you and yours or through that exit? Not to mention rifles have effective ranges in hundreds of yards and can be fatal even farther.
Think of it as enlightened self interest.
There have been a FEW. Which is what one would expect given how many mass shootings there have been. But I think it's perfectly accurate to say that it is UNLIKELY that permit holders are going to have an effect on mass shootings--because a few out of many is exactly the definition of unlikely. Especially when considering the El Paso shooting when it's almost certain that there were well over 30 permit holders present at the scene and none engaged, an assessment of "unlikely" seems exactly on target.
The firefighter intervention doesn't really qualify because it wasn't a mass shooting and all the evidence points to there being no mass shooting planned. He definitely did stop an idiot who was doing something very stupid, but he didn't stop a mass shooting.
I know that permit holders CAN affect mass shootings, but when the numbers say that there were literally dozens of permit holders on the scene of the El Paso shooting and yet no one did anything to stop the guy, it's hard to argue that permit holders are likely to be a positive factor in mass shootings. Possible, yes. Likely--NO. If we're going to be honest about this then we have to be--honest.
We don't accually know how many, if any, shoppers accually had firearms on them at the El Paso Wal-Mart. That's all speculation. Even if there were some there, this would be just one anecdotal example were no one did anything.
My main point was how many of the other examples of mass shootings happened at a place that wasn't a gun free zone where permit holders were possibly there? I wouldn't lump mass shootings that happen in gun free zones into the equation, and then make the claim that it's unlikely that a conceal carriers would intervene to stop mass shootings. Of course it's not likely when in most cases permit holders aren't allowed to carry any weapons let alone a firearm.
Recent example of attive shooters were stopped by civilians.
There are others I remember hearing about, but can not find. One if which ended where a man who took on a mass shooter was killed. Another case was were a guy attempted to take on a shooter, but was ambushed from behind by his female accomplice. Other than those caes, most others I've heard mentioned over the years on gun forums had happier endings.. The only difference is that the media never reports these cases. At least it's not national news, nor does it make the front page. I bet just about all of the general public has heard of these mass killings know nothing about anf never heard about any of the cases I've just cited. Matter of fact, while trying to Google the above cases, I came accross several dozen antigun articles (some recent that cite the El Paso shooting) claiming that the Good Guy with the gun scenario NEVER happens... Like you, all the recent articles are using the El Paso shooting as anecdotal proof... That's just not true.
Separate names with a comma.