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Chinese VZ24

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Robk13, Oct 12, 2019 at 4:31 AM.

  1. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    Hello all,

    At a gun show this week I picked up a rather rough VZ24 rifle marked "1937" on the receiver no Czech acceptance stamps. The stock has large Asian (I believe Chinese) characters branded in and what looks like an "80" Painted in red letters on the other side.

    The bolt has a hand made safety, bolt lock and boltbody is mismatched to receiver. Non import marked at all. A 8mm ball round will literally almost fall down the bore, so it has been shot to hell, but hey ww2 guns are awesome in any condition! Besides I only have 150$ in the rifle so I'm not too awfully concerned about it ( it even came with a canvas sling and the old vz style sight protector). With that being said this action is slicker than greased owl poop!

    Are there any vz experts out there that knows when these rifles came in the country? I'm wondering why it is not import marked being a Chinese rifle vs a captured Japanese one. It is neither a P or C series rifle the serial is 44967 and no prefix. Stock matches the receiver.

    I'll post some pictures as I get it put back together, very interesting gun and I would like to learn all I can about this old one.

    Thanks everyone!
     
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  2. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Could it be a Siamese Mauser?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siamese_Mauser_style_rifle

    Made in Japan, but mostly used by Siam (Thailand). Chambered for a weird round too.

    It occurs to me that almost any pre-WW2 asian weapon could be found in the hands of the Viet-cong too, so maybe a Vietnam-era GI bringback?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 7:55 AM
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  3. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    It's definitely made in Czechoslovakia (well the receiver is anyways) now the idea that the barrel is that weird Siamese cartridge for their Mauser had not occured to me and is very possible!

    Could also be a Vietnam bringback, it really is a neat one that's seen alot of action. Pics coming soon!
     
  4. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    It is known that the Nationalist Government bought some VZ 24's made in Czechoslovakia before WWII and the Germans' occupation of that country. The Siamese Mausers were made under license by the Japanese but never by the Czechs. You also had various makes of Chinese made GEW 88's as well as the original German makes floating around and there was a Mukden Mauser made under license in Manchuria before the Japanese took over. There are also some weird Chinese warlord rifles floating around that were probably made in some back alley from whatever they could scrounge.

    Given the need during the Chinese Civil War and almost immediate following of the Japanese invasion, anything that went bang was used. These were often then given to guerilla forces in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, or used in Korea by one side or the other.

    Pictures would help because it is probably a crudely repaired mongrel rifle where the parts in it came from all sorts of different firearms.

    As long as you don't shoot it, it is a relic of wars past and retains some value. It is probably not worth restoring to firing condition and worth roughly what you paid for it or a bit more. A lot of collectors are completists and might also find this rifle valuable to complete some sort of collection.
     
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  5. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    boom boom, thank you for that information I have never seen any of those warlord rifles or a Mukden Mauser (I know they made jap bayonets and I think type 99 rifles). I would be interested to see examples of those Mausers.

    My only regret is not slipping an 8mm round down the bore before buying but it's cool all the same. As promised here are some pics of the VZ24.

    Also I am including a picture of a marking on the forward end of the mag well/trigger guard assembly. This marking is new to me and is certainly not Czech so if anyone has an idea I would be interested to know. It does seem you are correct boom boom it is probably pieced together from other serviceable rifles.

    Matching parts are stock, receiver and barrel.

    Bolt body matches bolt shroud and cocking price matches the firing pin (which looks to have been rewelded together at some point). Everything else is in numbered and unmarked with the exception of the top barrel band which has a circle z Czech mark.

    Thanks again everyone!
     
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  6. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    Vz24
     

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  7. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    The rifling looks okay but...... IMG_20191012_144505012.jpg
     

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  8. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Actually, that is in pretty good shape as far as Chinese Mausers go and it appears to be a true vz-24.
    Here is a picture of the Mukden Mauser at the NRA Museum
    http://www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-g...kden-arsenal-mauser-98-bolt-action-rifle.aspx
    There are barrels for these that pop up from time to time on ebay for example, the Czech barrels have distinctive rifling versus everyone else in 8x57 Mauser. It has I would however, put and fit a safety and probably a new sear and cocking piece and do a function test after a gunsmith clears it for firing structurally. It is possible that someone, somewhere, rechambered it so make sure that the chamber is standard via a chamber cast or something like that and that the headspace is checked via a gauge. But, often, these old rifles, even with worn bores, shoot quite well with cast bullets and the lower pressures involved give you a greater margin of safety when firing the old warhorses. Depending on how the rifle was cleaned, it could be "wallowed" out by a cleaning rod at the muzzle which can be affecting your test. This can be fixed rather easily by counterboring that most gunsmiths can handle which also takes care of recrowning. However, this might affect collector value while the sear, cocking piece, and safety (CZ marked are fairly commonly seen on Ebay) can be switched back and forth for a collector as they do not permanently alter the firearm. Do check out the bolt body though as some of the Chinese made Mausers demonstrate very crude manufacturing techniques and may not be safe to fire.

    Doing a little further digging, apparently some of the VZ 24's were also sold to the Japanese. Here is a collector's website postings on the subject. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/par...rearmsforums/vz24-s-with-p-prefix-t30572.html
    Gunboards Collector's forum will also have significant information on these. Here is one such that talks about serial numbers related to these export sales. https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?103517-VZ-24-Chinese-Japanese this might be helpful and apparently all of the export sales are marked 1937 on the receiver and the s/n begins with P
     
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  9. MosinT53Hunter

    MosinT53Hunter Member

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    J&G Sales has about three of those VZ 24 from China for just under 2 bills.
     
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  10. BCR#1

    BCR#1 Member

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    I like it. Czech bolt parts should be easy to find. I have a Romanian contract rifle that I shoot from time to time. The receiver ring is scrubbed so no date.

    Bill
     
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  11. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    Wow if that's in good shape for a Chinese I would hate to see an abused one!

    That safety in the photos I fitted last night I kept the old hand made or "lightened" one, it still releases the firing pin once the trigger is pulled with the safety engaged once you try to go back to the fire position it goes click every time. This proving the sear engagement is fubar with these parts combo. I have a spare cocking piece bolt shroud and few others but no extra sears so I'll hunt for a cheap one on the bay to experiment with. Also, when cleaning the chamber I noticed it get tighter (more resistance on the brush) about 3/4 to an inch down the muzzle. What is different about the vz rifling vs other Mauser type rifles?

    Also thank you for the links they will make a very interesting read for me this evening. Also interesting concerning the serial number of this one is the absence of any prefix or suffix. The exhaust holes cut into the bolt body of this one is actually pretty crude and was surprising to me since VZ24 are typically perfectly machined. So I think your correct thinking it could be a Chinese bolt!

    T53 hunter thanks for the link, what's the deal with the one marked "A" it has a down turned bolt? Perhaps Chinese bolt on that one as well?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 5:36 PM
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  12. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    Thank you! I like it too it has that been there look that I really enjoy in my guns. I bet that Romanian shoots like a dream!
     
  13. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    These are the holes I said we're not precisely cut
     

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  14. MosinT53Hunter

    MosinT53Hunter Member

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    Your welcome. :) As to the grading, I'm not sure myself. J&G does things different from other sellers, you might ask them. They have their own Facebook page, and usually pretty responsive to questions.
     
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  15. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    They are pretty great over there in AZ, that's where I got one of my 24/47 and a star BM both were awesome!
     
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  16. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    Pre-WWII, post WWII and a lot more even civilian firearms.

    The only way to prove Vietnam era bring back is with the bring back original paperwork and the arms room tag adds value. The tag defined who owned each weapon that was stored by its owner.
     
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  17. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Sarco is probably the best source for new old stock bolts, especially the straight bolts used in the vz 24. They have some that are certified and were made by FN post war and are unnumbered. I suspect what you are seeing is muzzle damage probably from cleaning on how it goes 3/4 inch or so inside the bore--vigorous cleaning using a rod without a crown protector/centering device caused the wear I bet.

    Last but not least, the Czech barrels have distinctive smaller lands and grooves than the German Mausers. I've also found that Czech receivers that I have had are a bit different spec wise to the locking ring in depth from the outside of the receiver ring.
     
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  18. MosinT53Hunter

    MosinT53Hunter Member

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    Sarco Inc. web site is updating, and a lot of their product is not shown at the moment, that goes to bolts as well. Just a heads up.
     
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  19. BCR#1

    BCR#1 Member

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    [QUOTE="boom boom, post: 11259117, Last but not least, the Czech barrels have distinctive smaller lands and grooves than the German Mausers. I've also found that Czech receivers that I have had are a bit different spec wise to the locking ring in depth from the outside of the receiver ring.[/QUOTE]

    My VZ 24 is the opposite. It has the widest lands of any 8mm Mauser I own including all of my Yugo an German models.

    Bill
     
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  20. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    My VZ 24 is the opposite. It has the widest lands of any 8mm Mauser I own including all of my Yugo an German models.

    Bill[/QUOTE]
    Heck, it is been awhile, I probably have them reversed. I thought about going to check but figured my memory was good enough. I just remembered how distinctive it was compared to the German Mauser barrels I was used to.
     
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  21. boom boom
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    boom boom Contributing Member

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    The trick is right now to get to those parts is to use google to search the part including sarco in the keywords and it will take you to the parts.
    https://www.sarcoinc.com/m98-mauser-straight-body-stripped-bolt-new-original/
    MSR5171__29446.1568646127.jpg

    They also have some that have longer lugged NOS Mauser bolts that can help address headspace issues but not lug setback.
     
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  22. kBob

    kBob Member

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    at least one Korean War vet I knew (he has passed) said some Red Chinese troops in Korea were armed with K98s of some sort, whether Changkisheck models or imports he did not know.

    but with no picture I am guessing the Siamese Mauser is more likely

    Keep in mind that import marks in the US are a relatively recent thing

    -kBob
     
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  23. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    I am very tempted to get that brand new bolt body just because it is so new! I did order a few bolt parts from them that will freshen up this bolt including all new springs. Its also interesting to note the differences in the rifling of the vz24. Last night after about 3 hours of cleaning and scrubbing the bore it began to come out clean, the lands are pretty soft and rounded although there is plenty of rifling left and the throat seems OK from a visual inspection.

    As for the muzzle I think boom boom hit the nail on the head, it seems the wear there could easily be caused by rigorous and incorrect cleaning (down the muzzle opposed to chamber out)....I can hear my old drill SSg yelling about it from here.

    I am replacing the firing pin as well considering the condition this one is in, I think someone welded it back together at some point but I am not certain.
     
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  24. Robk13

    Robk13 Member

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    Funky firing pin
     

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  25. MosinT53Hunter

    MosinT53Hunter Member

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    Looks like one of those "well, if it works, it works" kind of jobs. Best to replace with new.
     
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