Circuit Judge for home defense

[Ironhand54]

Dont know who suggested that .45 colt isn't my reply was how .45 colt is a good round especially out of a carbine or rifle length barrel, the flack that the gun is getting is over using .410 shells for defense, they just dont penetrate the way that people who use these firearms think, Goosey on here posted a vid of a gel block, but Paul Harrel does a much more realistic test on his channel showing the mediocrity of .410 shells, Here it is and also he has a part 2 if you want to see it :

This is an interesting study. it demonstrates several things.

1. Even the largest judge is no bigger than a common HD revolver.

2. The judge is as accurate as a 357 snubbie when fired slow fire by an unstressed , experienced shooter on a well lit outdoor range.

3. A full cylinder from a 357 snubbie will result in 5 holes, from a Judge 25 holes. 5x more hits.

4. Buckshot delivers power without the overpenetration of a 357 mag. Making it a safer choice for HD since there is less chance of endangering innocents in an adjoining room or apartment.

Generaly a strong recommendation for the use of the Judge with buckshot for HD .

IronHand

 

[Swifty Morgan]

This reminds me of Boss Hoss motorcycles. I'm glad someone makes them, and I think they're kind of neat, but I wouldn't have one even if it was free.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

This is an interesting study. it demonstrates several things.

1. Even the largest judge is no bigger than a common HD revolver.

2. The judge is as accurate as a 357 snubbie when fired slow fire by an unstressed , experienced shooter on a well lit outdoor range.

3. A full cylinder from a 357 snubbie will result in 5 holes, from a Judge 25 holes. 5x more hits.

4. Buckshot delivers power without the overpenetration of a 357 mag. Making it a safer choice for HD since there is less chance of endangering innocents in an adjoining room or apartment.

Generaly a strong recommendation for the use of the Judge with buckshot for HD .

IronHand

I didn't see that, it was showing that the gun when loaded with buck shot suffers from severe lack of performance , if it can't reach the vitals it's not useful there is no such thing as using a firearm for less than lethal purposes when you fire the law will not differentiate so if your even justified in shooting and a determined attacker is coming against you, you need the performance that .410 buck is not going to give shotgun or handgun.

 

[Goosey]

I didn't see that, it was showing that the gun when loaded with buck shot suffers from severe lack of performance , if it can't reach the vitals it's not useful there is no such thing as using a firearm for less than lethal purposes when you fire the law will not differentiate so if your even justified in shooting and a determined attacker is coming against you, you need the performance that .410 buck is not going to give shotgun or handgun.

This 'Circuit Judge' will throw three to five .36 caliber balls at over 1000 fps. That can reach the vitals.

 

[JTHunter]

This 'Circuit Judge' will throw three to five .36 caliber balls at over 1000 fps. That can reach the vitals.

Possibly, but they didn't seem to do very well on the cinder block. The video also doesn't specify what type of bullets were used in the .357. FMJ vs. .36 cal lead balls should have better penetration. It's possible that even JHPs would penetrate as well as, possibly better than, the buckshot. In that video, the first shot of the Judge hit, but failed to penetrate the block. Shot #2 did not even appear to hit the block. Shot #3 had a single pellet poke a hole in the already damaged block.

 

[js8588]

Had one. Loved it. Sold it when $ was tight. Probably getting another by year's end. I have other, "better" guns, but darn if these aren't fun.

In my experience, they're "minute of bowling pin" at 25 yards. Plenty good enough for home defense & just plain fun.

 

[Goosey]

Possibly, but they didn't seem to do very well on the cinder block. The video also doesn't specify what type of bullets were used in the .357. FMJ vs. .36 cal lead balls should have better penetration. It's possible that even JHPs would penetrate as well as, possibly better than, the buckshot. In that video, the first shot of the Judge hit, but failed to penetrate the block. Shot #2 did not even appear to hit the block. Shot #3 had a single pellet poke a hole in the already damaged block.

Well, they aren't very powerful, each pellet probably makes less than 100 ft lb. I think the pellets would do better on flesh than concrete. That is a snub-nosed Judge, though, whereas the gun in the title has a full 18.5" barrel, so the pellets should be going something like 1000-1300 fps instead of only 700-800. And whether you get the usual eight pellets from a 12-gauge 2-3/4" or the three to five 000 balls from a 2-3/4"-3" .410, those pellets are the same size and moving at similar speed, and the 12-gauge with triple-ought doesn't have any real penetration problems.

And going to the slugs, although light, the Brenneke slugs mentioned earlier in this thread are tougher and penetrate a bit deeper than the usual 1/5 or 1/4-oz Foster types and are advertised to make over 750 ft lbs, so I think the .410 would do just fine with certain loads, and maybe at 1700+ fps, could cause more damage than some of the standard pressure .45 Colt loads.

And don't forget that the Navy Colt would fire a .375" ball at about 1,000 fps and one of those balls was plenty lethal. The .36" 000 isn't that much smaller, and you get up to five each time.

So it's not like it's shooting spitballs. The gun should work for home defense.

 

[Ironhand54]

The author of the video was not looking for a fair comparison. He was looking to prove that he was right. He chose a large model of Judge to make it less concealable, he chose targets that he knew would produce visual results to support his opinions, he used a single projectile from a magnum cartridge as a standard without any justification except that it supported his preconceived opinion.

This experiment would get a failing grade in a freshman high school physics class. As someone who has designed and conducted scientific studies I find this kind of video annoying.

Climbing down from my soapbox now
IronHand

 

[Roger Laird]

winner 7.9 gr Trail Boss, 255 gr XTP .1096 fps + or - 2fps across crony, 1.25 " groups from rest at 25 yards all with in 2" circle 25 yards off hand

That should have said 1296 fps across the crony sorry

 

[GEM]

The question, as in all 410/45 revolver threads, is not whether as a gun it wouldn't work but whether there are not better solutions. If one searches the numerous threads on such guns or on the web, you can find expert opinion from respected tactical trainers who do not think these guns are close to optimal. Converts cite the 410 loads as being superior to standard handgun or rifle loads and downplay capacity, ease of reloads, distance accuracy and the like. The 410 loads are seen as superior to modern 9s, 38/257s, 45 ACP for some reason unknown to the expert world. The 410 is seen as a substitute for having a modicum of training and ability.

So if you are looking a firing one or two shots at a burglar - it is a gun. However, if you know something about firearms beyond just shooting at the square range once in awhile, you would choose something else for home defense.

I view 410 revolver or rifle hybrid recommendations the same way as I view folks who answer what HD gun for an elderly women with 12 gauge pistol grip shotgun - 'Nuf Said! You don't have to aim from the hip!

Might work - maybe.

 

[Roger Laird]

The question, as in all 410/45 revolver threads, is not whether as a gun it wouldn't work but whether there are not better solutions. If one searches the numerous threads on such guns or on the web, you can find expert opinion from respected tactical trainers who do not think these guns are close to optimal. Converts cite the 410 loads as being superior to standard handgun or rifle loads and downplay capacity, ease of reloads, distance accuracy and the like. The 410 loads are seen as superior to modern 9s, 38/257s, 45 ACP for some reason unknown to the expert world. The 410 is seen as a substitute for having a modicum of training and ability.

So if you are looking a firing one or two shots at a burglar - it is a gun. However, if you know something about firearms beyond just shooting at the square range once in awhile, you would choose something else for home defense.

I view 410 revolver or rifle hybrid recommendations the same way as I view folks who answer what HD gun for an elderly women with 12 gauge pistol grip shotgun - 'Nuf Said! You don't have to aim from the hip!

Might work - maybe.

Any gun is next to worthless without training and practice.I have hand guns in revolvers and semi-autos in calibers 357 mag,44 mag,and 45 colt. I can't get her to practice with them.She picked this gun out because she thought she would be comfortable with it.Since the purchase she has already been out practicing 4 times and her groups are improving.She has gone through 200 rounds of 45 lc all ready LOL. Once she gets comfortable I will work on training and then stress drills.And then maybe she will be more willing to try something else.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

The author of the video was not looking for a fair comparison. He was looking to prove that he was right. He chose a large model of Judge to make it less concealable, he chose targets that he knew would produce visual results to support his opinions, he used a single projectile from a magnum cartridge as a standard without any justification except that it supported his preconceived opinion.

This experiment would get a failing grade in a freshman high school physics class. As someone who has designed and conducted scientific studies I find this kind of video annoying.

Climbing down from my soapbox now
IronHand

By virtue of the shotshell it shoots it automatically makes the gun less concealable, and wouldnt we want to see visual results vs paper results which oft get handled as the end all be all? A .357 4 inch revolver was THE standard of the time when revolvers were carried by law enforcement your making it seem like he fired it against a random cartridge with no history that backs it up, honestly it seems your just upset that the Judge isnt viewed by others as you may view it.

 

[GEM]

To Roger - getting training is always something that is hard to get some people to do. I know guys who talk all the gun talk, holsters, models, ammo - blah, blah and they have never done anything but shoot the square range at 7 yards.

A good general resource for women shooters that might point the way to reasonable skills and good gun choices is:

http://www.corneredcat.com/

You can't beat a quality 9mm hangun for general SD and HD, if you can get someone up to speed on them. I see young women in their early teens shoot them easily and well.

They are so much a better choice than a Judge like clunker.

 

[Roger Laird]

To Roger - getting training is always something that is hard to get some people to do. I know guys who talk all the gun talk, holsters, models, ammo - blah, blah and they have never done anything but shoot the square range at 7 yards.

A good general resource for women shooters that might point the way to reasonable skills and good gun choices is:

http://www.corneredcat.com/

You can't beat a quality 9mm hangun for general SD and HD, if you can get someone up to speed on them. I see young women in their early teens shoot them easily and well.

They are so much a better choice than a Judge like clunker.

Thank you for the link

 

[RPZ]

Just a correction on my post June 13, the Brenneke .410 slug is about 100 grains - not 300 as I posted.

 

[Ironhand54]

By virtue of the shotshell it shoots it automatically makes the gun less concealable, and wouldnt we want to see visual results vs paper results which oft get handled as the end all be all? A .357 4 inch revolver was THE standard of the time when revolvers were carried by law enforcement your making it seem like he fired it against a random cartridge with no history that backs it up, honestly it seems your just upset that the Judge isnt viewed by others as you may view it.

I have no problem with differences of opinion. That's what makes these forums fun. That's how we learn.

What bugs me is a YouTube "expert" using contrived "tests" to support there opinion as "fact".

In a earlier post I demonstrated how the video could be interpreted as a recommendation for the Judge. While that was mostly satire it does show how little value these arbitrary "tests" have.

I love a good discussion more than most. I just don't like bad science.

Sorry if I upset anyone.
Ironhand

 

[js8588]

She has it, she likes it, & 45 colt or 410 loads are more than adequate to take down bad guys at self defense range with it.

Oh, what most of the "warriors" on here who have never handled a Circuit Judge are missing is it weighs sub 5lbs & barely recoils with 45s. Good enough for the little lady to play Annie Oakley should a BG come knocking at the door.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

I have no problem with differences of opinion. That's what makes these forums fun. That's how we learn.

What bugs me is a YouTube "expert" using contrived "tests" to support there opinion as "fact".

In a earlier post I demonstrated how the video could be interpreted as a recommendation for the Judge. While that was mostly satire it does show how little value these arbitrary "tests" have.

I love a good discussion more than most. I just don't like bad science.

Sorry if I upset anyone.
Ironhand

That man has won numerous competitions both in the service and out and has been an instructor for law enforcement and military personnel for decades, hardly more than just a "youtube expert".

 

[Ironhand54]

I am trying to keep this civil but I seem to be in the minority.

Believe who, and what, you want.

I'm done with this. I don't do flame wars

IronHand

 

[cdb1]

I have no problem with differences of opinion. That's what makes these forums fun. That's how we learn.

What bugs me is a YouTube "expert" using contrived "tests" to support there opinion as "fact".

In a earlier post I demonstrated how the video could be interpreted as a recommendation for the Judge. While that was mostly satire it does show how little value these arbitrary "tests" have.

I love a good discussion more than most. I just don't like bad science.

Sorry if I upset anyone.
Ironhand

I’m with you on this one Ironhand, about the video.

 

[RedlegRick]

I agree, there's no need to get nasty about this. OP's wife found herself a shooting iron she likes and apparently shoots well, and that's the most important thing here.
Sure, all of the other suggestions are good ones backed up by solid data, but what I see here is a case of 'it is what it is'. The lady's piece shoots not one, but two cartridges that are more than adequate for a short range SD/HD scenario, should it come to it and all here should recognize that.
So what .410 buck or slugs can't punch through cinder block. When was the last time anyone anywhere got attacked by a cinderblock wall? I think that's a terrible metric to use when discussing the usefulness of a round.

I can relate to this thread for one reason, I got my SO a KT Sub 2000 a few years ago and while she could shoot it more than acceptably well, she never liked it because off all the other things she needed to do with it.

At the club, she saw a father and son pair shooting a .22 auto rifle and they graciously allowed her to take a few shots with it. Long story short, the Sub 2000 is gone, and her only gun is a Marlin 795 she likes and shoots a lot more.
Sure, she gave up the greater range and power of the 9mm rifle, but she is much more confident and enjoys shooting the 795 more, and that's more important, in my book.

And while training is all well and good, it still hinges on if the person wants to and afford it, both temporally and financially. I say let the lady proceed at her own pace and let her decide what road she wishes to take.

 

[cdb1]

I agree, there's no need to get nasty about this. OP's wife found herself a shooting iron she likes and apparently shoots well, and that's the most important thing here.
Sure, all of the other suggestions are good ones backed up by solid data, but what I see here is a case of 'it is what it is'. The lady's piece shoots not one, but two cartridges that are more than adequate for a short range SD/HD scenario, should it come to it and all here should recognize that.
So what .410 buck or slugs can't punch through cinder block. When was the last time anyone anywhere got attacked by a cinderblock wall? I think that's a terrible metric to use when discussing the usefulness of a round.

I can relate to this thread for one reason, I got my SO a KT Sub 2000 a few years ago and while she could shoot it more than acceptably well, she never liked it because off all the other things she needed to do with it.

At the club, she saw a father and son pair shooting a .22 auto rifle and they graciously allowed her to take a few shots with it. Long story short, the Sub 2000 is gone, and her only gun is a Marlin 795 she likes and shoots a lot more.
Sure, she gave up the greater range and power of the 9mm rifle, but she is much more confident and enjoys shooting the 795 more, and that's more important, in my book.

And while training is all well and good, it still hinges on if the person wants to and afford it, both temporally and financially. I say let the lady proceed at her own pace and let her decide what road she wishes to take.

Agreed.

 

[somethingbenign]

My wife isn't a handgun person at all. Fine being around them but doesn't really want to hold one or shoot them. Went to the range last night to gear up for hunting with her and we rented a mare's leg in 45 Colt. Lo and behold she loved it and now wants one. I'm not sure of the "right" way to aim it but her accuracy was acceptable.

Long story short, sometimes novelty/gimicky guns are the difference between someone shooting at all or not. Let the new shooter have their fun and find their own way.

 

[Roger Laird]

My wife isn't a handgun person at all. Fine being around them but doesn't really want to hold one or shoot them. Went to the range last night to gear up for hunting with her and we rented a mare's leg in 45 Colt. Lo and behold she loved it and now wants one. I'm not sure of the "right" way to aim it but her accuracy was acceptable.

Long story short, sometimes novelty/gimicky guns are the difference between someone shooting at all or not. Let the new shooter have their fun and find their own way.

I agree and as an update she is now showing an interest in shooting my Redhawk lol

 

[GEM]

I might suggest for all men who are 'choosing' and/or 'suggesting' a gun for a female significant other, that they pair their selection with a quality course on handgun usage oriented towards females. They are springing up all over the country by good people.

Thus, the person in question might be exposed to quality handguns without the male ego of 'my way' is the 'way'. Finding your own way sounds nice but there are better ways.

Oh, spare us the rage quitting of the thread when you don't like the opinions. Just don't come back to it. Read https://www.complex.com/pop-culture...rgument-on-the-internet/never-stop-commenting for hints.