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Classic Autoloaders

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by birdshooter, Jan 19, 2014.

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  1. birdshooter

    birdshooter Member

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    I like the debate regarding the Glock. Always interesting to consider all the opinions. I included it in my initial list (I'm not particularly fond of them) because it brought the use of polymers in firearms into the mainstream. It's likeness is easily recognized as is its name, even among non-gun people. It may not be a Classic, but certainly is an important gun in firearms history.
     
  2. Thompsoncustom

    Thompsoncustom Member

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    I'll give you that, I own both a Dan wesson 1911 and a glock 17 but bais towards the glock ya. I think your right it a couple decades that will determine it being a classic or not.

    agree this is all very true.
     
  3. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    ^^^^^^ That's why I used the word influential to define classic for my list. Some of the guns so far listed are milestones but some of them are also milestones on a dead-end road. Many are interesting but not influential, not particularly better than others, and/or are very limited in usefulness.
     
  4. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    I dont think anyone is debating that fact. However, they are typically referred to Modern Combat Handguns. Im not sure you can be both modern and classic at the same time.
     
  5. usp9

    usp9 Member

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    That knocks out the 1911 then as well. The original has certainly been tweeked over the years into a modern creation.
     
  6. larryh1108

    larryh1108 Member

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    25 years for automobiles seems like a good timeline because autos were never meant to last a lifetime, or more. If you remember, back in to 70s and 80s, when an auto approached 100k miles, it was time to shop for a new(er) car. 100k was about all they were built to last. Earlier models didn't get that far.

    Guns are built to last a lifetime or more. If you maintain it, you can safely shoot it for well over 100 years. I believe Glocks will fit this criteria when the time comes. When it reaches it's 100th birthday I'm sure we'll have some nice pictures and stories about some original Glocks that are still shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds later.

    So, I believe the term "classic" should mean something that has proven, over a long period of time, to be still in demand in the collector's market and still has the looks and feel of years gone by. A M1911 is considered a classic because it still has it's internal operation nearly identical to the days it was mass produced and put into mainstream use. Changes today are cosmetic, not functional. The original design is still intact 100 years later. In 2030, I believe Glocks will also be the same and will still be produced with cosmetic changes. 50 years may be the definition of a classic gun. 25 years is no where near enough time for a gun made to last a lifetime. Perhaps, a "lifetime" may be the guide for a classic gun. Perhaps 75 years is the correct number? We're approaching 75 years as our average lifetime these days.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2014
  7. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    "Classic Combat Handguns"

    hmm, makes me need to recall what the criteria
    was the History channel used for their Top 10 Tanks of
    all time.
    * Firepower, Cartrdge Chambereing & Capacity
    * Reliability in the Field
    * Number produced,
    * Ease of Producttion
    * Llength of Service

    Any others? esthetics/beauty in the eye of the beholder
     
  8. Saleen322

    Saleen322 Member

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    Classic Handguns - Autoloaders

    1911 (Easy one!)
    S&W 52 Target
    Hammerli 208 (set records that still stand)
    High Standard (only American made pistol to win an Olympic gold metal in rapid fire)

    I don't list Glock as it was more skilled marketing that make it as popular as it is than some special quality the pistol had. It is one of the most popular pistols among people who don't know much about guns because of TV and such.
     
  9. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Early Yugos are 25 years old too:neener:

    Some other Classics Walther PP the classic Bond gun and the Colt 1903/1908 pocket auto classic gat of gangsters.
     
  10. Swichblade

    Swichblade Member

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    Steyr 1912
    Savage 1908
    FN 1922
     
  11. wow6599

    wow6599 Member

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    I think at some point (now?) the CZ 75 needs to be on "the list".
     
  12. RX-79G

    RX-79G Member

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    The Sig P220 series dates from 1975, like the Beretta 92 and CZ-75. Funny how it isn't on anyone's list.

    I'd through the Astra 400 type on the list along with the some of the hammerless Colts, Browing Baby, Hi Standard, S&W 41 and 39, Walther PP, Tokarev, Sauer 38H, Radom, Beretta 1934 and 1951
     
  13. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    +1 on the CZ 75 with all of it's variants since 1975
    and one earmark of a great design is being copied
    First of the "Wonder 9s" endorsed by Jeff Cooper.
    Combined the inverse rail/slide relationship
    of the sig P210 BHP cam action barrel / slide
    lockup with a DA/SA trigger and frame mounted
    thumb safety.

    Sig Sauer P220 1st DA/SA in 45 ACP
    aso from the mid-1970s and the design
    spread to the P226/P229 and the other
    P22n pistols.

    & the Glock 17/19 was a game changer.
     
  14. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    I just updated my post to add the Beretta 92 to my list and it is funny.:evil:

    By my criteria for designating classic (influential) the CZ-75 would not be in the top 10. The hype for the CZ-75 from Jeff Cooper because it has a thumb safety permitting cock and locked carry, a double column magazine, and was the inspiration for his dream gun (Bren 10), has not resulted in it being influential. Nobody is designing new CZ-75 clones thinking they are going to win police and military contracts, or grab a significant market share of civilian sales from Glock, S&W, and every 1911 cloner. You might as well add the Beretta 84 to the list as it does everything design wise that the CZ-75 offers. The CZ-75 has always been near the periphery of the pistol world. This does not mean it is not an excellent pistol design.
     
  15. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    Well I think when a new firearm arrives that is recognized in less than 25 years by most people as being an obvious paradigm changer it becomes a classic. The huge influence in design, construction, and manual of arms of the Glock on new semiautomatic design is undeniable.
     
  16. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    Saleen322 and Mavracer,

    See post 40 and no I don't have any sympathy for the displeasure the success of the Glock is causing you. Don't even try to deny that it isn't. :neener:
     
  17. JDR

    JDR Member

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    1) Browning High Power 9mm
    2) 1911 Full Size & Commander Length, .45 ACP
    3) Glock 17 (up to Gen3); 22 & 21 (all Gens)
    4) Sig P225 (P6), P220 (.45 ACP), P226 (9mm & 40 S&W), P228
    5) HK USP - Full Size & Compact - all calibers
    6) CZ 75B (9mm), P01
    7) S&W 3rd Gen 3903, 5903, 5906
    8) S&W Performance Center 952 & 945
    9) Beretta 92FS & 96FS
    10) Luger
    11) Walther P38, PPK (.380 ACP)
    12) Ruger P-Series, 9mm & .45 ACP
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  18. wow6599

    wow6599 Member

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    Not sure why it's funny, but OK.

    I do respect most everything Col. Cooper subscribed to, but him saying the CZ 75 would be his pick if he had to use a 9mm has nothing to do with my liking of the firearm.


    Nobody is really "designing" anything. All new designs are take-offs of old designs with a different spin. All plastic.

    M&P, FNP, PX4, etc. And I don't think, with the exception of some "special forces", you will ever see the 1911 issued again. Condition 3 is out, and condition 1 would never be accepted by 'big army'.


    I understand you have a strong liking of the .380, but comparing a Cheetah to a CZ 75? OK. And yes, I do understand the mystic of the CZ for years during the old Warsaw pact, but it's still going strong. The Cheetah? Probably not enough love for a double-stack .380, but I digress....

    I understand the P-38 was the first locked-breech DA/SA firearm (PPK), but I have a hard time believing a gun designed in the 1930's, and discontinued in the 1960's, had a lot to do with the US going with the 92 in 1984 (85?).

    NATO had everything to do with the US switching to 9mm.


    I'll give you the G17, but no way does a G22 belong on any list like this. The G22 wasn't even designed for the 40 S&W, like say a M&P40 was. I know Glock beat-out S&W to market (still wonder about that) with it, but I have always thought the 4006 was 'the first'. I would probably trust a G22 now, but not for their first 15-18 years. Kaboom.
     
  19. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    All comments are above in underlined italics.
     
  20. RX-79G

    RX-79G Member

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    I wouldn't say that the Walther action system contributed to the 92's adoption by the US. The gun was found to be just as acceptably feed reliable as the Sig was.

    What's funny about that adoption was that the Beretta bid was lower. If the P226 and 92FS were sourced out of the same factory, the Beretta would be a more expensive pistol to build.
     
  21. hartcreek

    hartcreek member

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    I would ad an Ortiges to the list
     
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