"clear front sight"/ Front sight, press?

[1KPerDay]

So here's the deal. I've been shooting for 30 years, actively shooting with weekly range visits and monthly matches for about 8 years. I only started recently shooting paper, working on Bill Drills, Dot Torture drills, etc. And I've come to the conclusion that I don't shoot "right" according to most things I've read (and actually according to what I teach new shooters. I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus. But I don't think I have been actually shooting that way, at least in matches or when doing drills.

Something intrigued me about what Travis Haley says here, at 10 minutes 53 seconds.


The "hard threat focus" he discusses is apparently what I've been doing, or at least something closer to that than "clear front sight." I have weird eyes. I wasn't diagnosed with a lazy eye as a kid because I memorized the eye chart because I didn't want to fail the test. My right eye didn't develop properly. It's kinda like poorly developed film or a digital image without half of the pixels. I'm strongly left-eye dominant but right handed, so I shoot long guns lefty and handguns righty, using my left eye. I am what most people would call competent or moderate/advanced handgun shooter; I usually place top 15 percent in local matches and I have won a few. Not state or national level, so take that for what it's worth. But I feel like I'm reasonably competent.

In shooting drills on paper recently, I've become aware that when I really try to get a sharp focus on the front sight, two things happen:
1. It slows me way down; and
2. I see two targets and have to kind of pick the correct one. This happens whether at 3 yards or 20.

I have never really seriously evaluated what I'm actually doing when I shoot before. I just shoot and the plates fall. I have had moments in matches where I have tried to pay attention to where my focus is and have had mixed results.

Shooting a red dot has probably concealed this issue because with a dot you have a "target focus" and the dot just hovers over it. You're not focusing hard on the dot/optic. At least I'm not. This works okay for me; here's a recent video for reference if needed.



However, I've been shooting iron sights the past couple of weeks and I've learned that it's rare for me to actually have a sharp, clear, front sight focus. I can see the sights reasonably well aligned with each other and with the target, but they are somewhat blurry; my actual focus is on the target or somewhere between the front sight and the target.

My question is... at this point in my life should I actually put in the effort to try to learn to shoot with a sharp, clear, front sight focus? Or is the result what matters? If I can hit targets reasonably quickly does it matter where my focus is? Should I perfect and continue refining and progressing using my natural instinctual sighting method or should I learn to "do it the right way"?

As Travis says in his video above, in an actual fight your focus will likely be on the threat. I imagine it's somewhat controversial to contradict 100 years of handgun fighting canon by suggesting that you can shoot quickly and accurately without a sharp front sight picture. Maybe this doesn't matter, but I am pretty curious about it.

 

[sgt127]

The whole front sight thing gives you a focus point to distract you from jerking the trigger. It does work, but slows you down. As you get better, the front sight is where it’s supposed to be and, you can stop trying so hard to focus on it.

 

[RecoilRob]

Many years ago there was talk of the 'Tachy Psyche Reaction' which basically means when you are confronted with a threat....that you will focus your eyes on that threat and not be able to pull it back to the front sight. So it makes sense to practice focusing on the target and do the best you can to find the front sight...which is what's going to happen anyhow. In a match where you need to find and hit multiple targets, it's going to be difficult to find then pull your focus back to the front sight...shoot...then refocus downrange for the next target. You're doing it right IMHO. With practice you can become a pretty decent shot focusing on the target....and should the particular situation require extreme precision you can always take the time to sharpen on the front sight for that extra little bit it will give you.

 

[someguy2800]

My eyes are terrible and if I focus on the front sight I can't see anything. I use colored sight to help me compensate for this. I paint my front sights bright red and my rear sights I put a white border around the notch. This way to shoot fast I can focus on the target and just put the red inside the white and pull the trigger. Works for me but I'm also newer at this than you.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

The "right way" has never seemed like anything to me but a way to get new shooters started.

We are all a little different. If you're hitting where you want at a speed you are happy with, I see no reason to reinvent what you're doing.

 

[theotherwaldo]

The only times that I've had to use a short gun in defense I was unable to see the front sight, much less focus on it. Accepting the probability of this happening again I practiced shooting from the position of the hand rather than the position of the sights. I found that I could stay within a torso-sized target consistently out to fifteen yards using a gun that I was well familiar with in very low light conditions..

Muscle memory matters!

Also, I can't focus on the front sight without glasses, as my right eye is pretty messed up and I normally shoot right handed - and I don't usually wear glasses except when driving or on the range. In an emergency I don't have time to put on my glasses before drawing my gun. So, front-sight focus is reserved for fun time on the range.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

At my age, well, might as well face facts... so I had my optometrist make up some eyeglasses specifically for shooting; I told him I wanted clear focus at 34 inches. They work. With these glasses on it's trivially easy to see the front sight clearly... because everything else is a blur. Good thing the bad guy will wait 'till I get 'em on.

 

[Riomouse911]

It looks like you’re doing fine as-is, I wouldn’t change a thing.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I've actually considered Lasik surgery specifically to improve my shooting. My glasses work, but I still have trouble at distance picking out detail. I don't like feeling depended on my looking glass.

The notion of eye surgery makes me want to puke though.

 

[farm23]

My son and one of my daughter’s husband’s have had Laski surgery but in both cases it only lasted for a few years. If insurance will pay ok.

 

[tipoc]

So here's the deal. I've been shooting for 30 years, actively shooting with weekly range visits and monthly matches for about 8 years. I only started recently shooting paper, working on Bill Drills, Dot Torture drills, etc. And I've come to the conclusion that I don't shoot "right" according to most things I've read (and actually according to what I teach new shooters. I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus. But I don't think I have been actually shooting that way, at least in matches or when doing drills.
...


The "hard threat focus" he discusses is apparently what I've been doing, or at least something closer to that than "clear front sight." ...

Shooting a red dot has probably concealed this issue because with a dot you have a "target focus" and the dot just hovers over it. You're not focusing hard on the dot/optic. At least I'm not...



However, I've been shooting iron sights the past couple of weeks and I've learned that it's rare for me to actually have a sharp, clear, front sight focus. I can see the sights reasonably well aligned with each other and with the target, but they are somewhat blurry; my actual focus is on the target or somewhere between the front sight and the target.

My question is... at this point in my life should I actually put in the effort to try to learn to shoot with a sharp, clear, front sight focus? Or is the result what matters? If I can hit targets reasonably quickly does it matter where my focus is? Should I perfect and continue refining and progressing using my natural instinctual sighting method or should I learn to "do it the right way"?

As Travis says in his video above, in an actual fight your focus will likely be on the threat. I imagine it's somewhat controversial to contradict 100 years of handgun fighting canon by suggesting that you can shoot quickly and accurately without a sharp front sight picture. Maybe this doesn't matter, but I am pretty curious about it.

The other way of looking at this is that in what you learned and were teaching you diverged from a century of handgun fighting canon. Briefly; the line goes from the old timers (take your time quickly", to Fairbairn and Sykes to Rex Applegate to Jeff Cooper and pretty much stops there. Cooper taught two things about aiming...that the aimed shot is more accurate than the unaimed shot and he taught from Applegate that the "Flash Sight " picture is good for speed.

The traditional aimed shot, clear front sight, fuzzy target, fuzzy rear sight is the best and most accurate sight picture when you have time for it. (Though the more practice one has the faster you get.) When you don't have the time the "flash sight picture" is what has been traditionally taught and was taught by Cooper. The front sight comes up, you index off it. You don't have time to see it clear and sharp but you see it over the where you want it to be and press the trigger. The target may be clearer than the front sight but you see it none-the-less and index off it. This is the meaning of "Front sight, Press!".

Go back and reread the old timers. Look again at "The Modern Technique of the Pistol". What you are speaking about is right there.

tipoc

 

[rskent]

I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus.

With a handgun? Only in my dreams. Its more like target is out of focus and the sights are a fuzzy blur.

 

[wally]

I've actually considered Lasik surgery specifically to improve my shooting. My glasses work, but I still have trouble at distance picking out detail. I don't like feeling depended on my looking glass.

The major problem with vision and shooting is the loss of accommodation with age (presbyopia) that starts occurring at about age 45 give or take. Once you are where I am (and you seem to be approaching) with very little accommodation remaining, you have to choose correcting for distance (target) or reading (sights) and iron sights are just plain difficult. My advice is correct for distance and try "reading glasses" (inverse bifocals are popular for shooting) or start thinking about red dots for your favorite handguns.

My son and one of my daughter’s husband’s have had Laski surgery but in both cases it only lasted for a few years.

If your glasses contact lens prescription changes ever couple of years Lasik will likely not be a long term solution. The Lasik mills ignore this, the best eye doctors don't. Its particularly bad for contact wearers if the doctor doesn't insist on a month or more of glasses and no contacts so the eye returns to its "natural" shape before doing it.

A good eye doctor will also give you extended wear contacts to try the prescribed lasik correction before doing the actual procedure, especially if getting "monovision. IMHO the real strength of lasik is correcting for astigmatism -- mine was "minor" but my lasik (done 2008) has made a world of difference for me in all things I do.

Now at age 68 I've had my lasik "tweaked" so I have so-called monovision right eye near left eye far. This would seem "perfect" except for parallax when shooting handguns. My right eye focuses on the front sight just fine, my left eye focuses on the target just fine and can "switch" quickly. I'm having to relearn shooting handguns with iron sights (which was flat out a waste of ammo before the tweak).

What seems to work best for me is to focus on the target, bring the gun up into view, find the blurry front sight and shift focus to the front sight for alignment as I do the trigger break without worrying about sharpness anywhere.

Mostly I shoot steel plates at 10-15 yards, at 3-7 yards you need a lot less sighting precision. With my red dots the dot is blurrier than ever (which doesn't matter since you need to look through and not at it) but it seems I have to bias my aim a bit to the left of the target (parallax?). I haven't adjusted any dots yet as my brain is still adapting to the "monovision" I'll have runs where I'm almost as fast as with irons as with the red dot, and others where I can't seem to hit anything, but I think I'm getting a bit better every time out now that I'm doing what I surmise to be what the original poster is talking about.

 

[RA40]

Don't fix what isn't broken.

I'd done ok as the eyeballs changed with slightly fuzzy rear, slightly fuzzy front and sharp target. As the eyeballs changed the bright yellow of the Trijicon HD's worked well. I won't be a target shooter at any distance trying to do $.25 sized groups. In the younger days one may be able to quickly transition from clear front and clearish target.

That is why now I'm curious what a red dot will do. Iron sights are "challenging".

 

[Walkalong]

Posted by request.

 

[Mark 40]

Glad this one was revived, a good read and interesting videos.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

What I learned after an hour with an NRA instructor I know:

1.) The target must appear larger than your front sight.
2.) Get the front sight on target and the muzzle level.
3.) Grip as high as possible so recoil doesn't flip the muzzle.
4.) Squeeze the trigger like a tube of toothpaste. If the gun goes off sooner than you can say "squeeze," you're jerking the trigger.

The rest is academic.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I imagine it's somewhat controversial to contradict 100 years of handgun fighting canon by suggesting that you can shoot quickly and accurately without a sharp front sight picture. Maybe this doesn't matter, but I am pretty curious about it.

I'd say you should still work on being able to shoot with a sharp front sight focus for the occasions when you run into the 40 yard Standards stages at bigger matches

Your actually not fighting cannon, you simply weren't instructed properly/completely. Aligning your sights when engaging a target isn't a skilled with a fixed goal, it is taught as a progression because to teach the final skill level is much harder without first mastering the fundamentals.

When we start out with new shooters we usually teach a detailed sight alignment...centered front blade, leveled tops of front and rear blade, and equal light through the rear notch on either side of the of the front blade. This progresses to looking through the rear notch at the front blade and allowing your subconscious to balance the rear alignment. As you move through the progression, the whole process of alignment become subconscious and you see your sights without consciously looking at them ...it's like a quarterback being able to see the whole field when deciding which receiver is open; unlike the rookie who "locks in" on a receiver.

When I was taught the technique, it was called the Zen of Seeing Your Sights...other names have always been more "tactical", like Threat Focused Shooting, etc...

 

[LiveLife]

I teach sharp focus on the front sight, target is out of focus, rear sight slightly out of focus. But I don't think I have been actually shooting that way, at least in matches or when doing drills.

The "hard threat focus" he discusses is apparently what I've been doing, or at least something closer to that than "clear front sight."

Posted by request.

you simply weren't instructed properly/completely. Aligning your sights when engaging a target isn't a skilled with a fixed goal, it is taught as a progression because to teach the final skill level is much harder without first mastering the fundamentals.

When I was taught the technique, it was called the Zen of Seeing Your Sights...other names have always been more "tactical", like Threat Focused Shooting, etc...

As usual, Walkalong and 9mmepiphany (Who BTW is an IDPA state champion) gave you excellent information.

I went through Army bootcamp in 1985 and was trained to shoot with fuzzy rear sight ring with clear front sight of my M16. When I shot USPSA in the 90s, I was told by other match shooters to use "Front sight flash". When I started learning "Shot Calling" but my speed plateaued, seasoned match shooters and particularly regional match shooters told me I needed to learn the "Zen" of shooting which was shifting the focus from front sight to the target by looking past the front sight for clear target picture (but with fuzzy front sight on target) and to see holes appear. They told me the "Zen" of shooting was deliberately practicing to the point where you absolutely knew and could place your shots anywhere on target at will as fast as you can shoot (instead of pulling/pressing the trigger and hoping the holes would appear at point of aim).

For faster defensive shooting or "hard threat focus" or other shooting situation where use of sights is not feasible, my defensive shooting instructor who owned an indoor range who also taught PD/SD SWAT teams and was USPSA RSO, taught USPSA match shooters "point shooting" (Or indexed shooting for some) that he taught to his SWAT students. He made us go through the same range/stage set up with lowered lighting so it was almost dark and tossed in smoke grenade and had us remove the front sight of our Glocks to engage USPSA stage style targets (Like blue taping over front sight). And final pass/fail criteria was quick draw to bang with 4"-6" groups called out with six circle targets (Top right, bottom left, etc.) at 7-15 yards.

And of course, fast draw to quick multiple shots on multiple target role model for me is Jerry Miculek with process outlined in this post - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245640

In this video (Jump to 2:00 minute), Jerry Miculek explains his version of "Zen" of shooting where vision and depth perception is past the sights and even past the target being engaged with focus on a string of targets on match stage and even to include next string of targets. Jerry has hard time explaining what he does in the video but Rob Leatham demonstrates this in the video which we discussed in Competition category of where "Zen" of shooting and target engagement for speed (We are beyond accuracy because using "Zen" of shooting, we already KNOW all the holes will "appear" in A zone of target) where we are not waiting for POI confirmation on target but as soon as we pull/press the trigger, we KNOW the POI will appear on POA so our focus immediately shift to the next target/group of targets and our body is already moving before the ejected brass hits the ground.

At 0:40 second of video, Rob starts to demonstrate Miculek's fast draw to bang single shot explained above, then double shot (Double tap for some of us which is shooting at two targets superimposed on top of each other) and at 1:00 minute of video he says, "You shoot ... until you don't even have to think about it ... Obviously, I don't look for the sights because I see the sights ... " then he moves onto target acquisition of engaging multiple targets with multiple shots. This video is a good example of fast threat focused shooting.



In this video, Rob talks about the "speed" of reaction time that is essentially same for everyone because our neurons fire and transmit at the same speed (Yes, Jerry Miculek's neurons fire and transmit at the same speed as ours) and the need to practice until point of breaking.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Something intrigued me about what Travis Haley says

I should add that I have always found Haley's analysis and explanations to be completely in line with my own...I would never be so conceited as to say it mirrored mine. He explains things much as I do, where it is easy to understand and easy to form questions if it isn't clear

 

[9mmepiphany]

Rob starts to demonstrate Miculek's fast draw to bang single shot explained above, then double shot

This reminds me of my teacher...who was a GM in the days before Rob or Jerry were big names...who explained shooting faster. Staying with the Zen of Shooting theme:

"You don't shoot faster by pulling the trigger faster. You shoot faster by seeing you sights aligned on the target faster"...and allowing that perception to initiate your trigger press

 

[Pat Riot]

I have always been a pretty good pistol shooter in regards to hitting what I am aiming at where I want the bullet to hit. In purely pistol competitions (not CAS) that I used to shoot. I would always finish in the top 25%, though I have never won a match.

I have horrible eyesight. Always have. This stems from a sickness I had when I was a year old and survived a 107 degree fever. It affected my eyesight. My glasses almost look like magnifying glasses. Even with eyeglasses I cannot see 20:20 because if the eye doctor did make the lenses so that my vision was 20:20 I could only see clearly directly in front of me in the narrow focal point of the lenses. Everything outside the focal point would be blurry.

I also have physical limitations due to numerous motorcycle accidents and falls and the surgeries that followed which limits my flexibility in shooting stances.

I have tried many different styles of shooting and “sight theories”, as I call them, and what I have found over the years is eyes change. Bodies change. What works for you now may not work in a few years.
I have tried many of the concepts above.

I cannot just focus on the front sight or the target or even the rear sight. If I “focus” on one part the other parts blur completely out and I get mini headaches. Weird, I know. I have to constantly shift focus very quickly to ensure I hit my target where I want to hit it.

I guess what I am saying, after boring you with all this is this - There is no one system that is going to work for you for ever and ever. In order to maintain a high level of accuracy you must change as your body or eyesight changes,

If something does not work for you any longer do not beat yourself up over it. Adapt and move on. Find out what works for you now and use it until you find it no longer works and adapt again. I do not think there is one single system that will work for you for years and years. If there was there wouldn’t be so many articles, books and videos over the years. This is what makes shooting an “art” in my eyes.

 

[LiveLife]

I have horrible eyesight. Always have ... My glasses almost look like magnifying glasses. Even with eyeglasses I cannot see 20:20 ... I have tried many different styles of shooting and “sight theories”, as I call them, and what I have found over the years is eyes change. Bodies change. What works for you now may not work in a few years.

I have tried many of the concepts above ... I cannot just focus on the front sight or the target or even the rear sight

This post is for you and many others who have vision issues or other physical issues.

I have worn glasses for nearsightedness since I was 9 years old. And at 54, I am dealing with glaucoma with optic nerve damage and starting to have cataract in my left eye (This is why choosing your parents carefully is important ).

When I started shooting USPSA matches in the 90s to improve my shooting with custom built 1911 with 2.5 lb trigger job taught by a bullseye match shooting mentor, I just needed to point the muzzle at target and bullets went where I aimed at typical stage target distance of 7-15 yards. Shooting was easy with an accurate match gun and light trigger. Then my defensive shooting instructor/USPSA RSO challenged me to really improve my shooting by competing with my HD/SD pistol, which was factory stock Glock 22 because according to him, who taught PD/SD SWAT teams, what really mattered was being able to hit my threats (Yes, he always trained us to engage multiple targets) in real life when shooting conditions were less than ideal, especially poor, when visual sight alignment to target was not feasible.

So he taught us match shooters unsighted point shooting with front sights of our Glocks removed, indoor range light turned down and smoke tossed in ... And we managed to produce 4"-6" groups when he called out 6 circles on target (Top right, bottom left, etc.).

Fast forward to 2020 (I tell you, time flies so you better enjoy life when you are young) and my body is starting to fail me. I got diagnosed with spinal stenosis (I tell you, gotta choose your parents carefully, really ) which forced early retirement for me last year and my lifelong training of roundhouse kick would toss me down on the ground in paralyzing pain and no amount of "mind over matter" would help (More like, "I have fallen and can't get up" ). Thankfully, all of my martial arts instructors starting with my favorite uncle with 4th Dan in TKD/Hapkido before his stint in the Marines and 6th/8th Dan masters all emphasized incorporating the virtue of firearms mastery as our bodies aged, our kicks and punches will grow weaker and less precise (Instead of snapping 2x4s with sidekick or crushing bricks with hand, my wife now laughs when I reel in pain trying to snap small tree branches while my daughter exhibits greater strength/agility) but our ability to press the trigger with few pounds of pull will remain longer. So I pursued pistol shooting with intent of mastery in my 20s after my stint in the Army.

Now when I teach people to shoot/defensive point shooting (My retirement "Pay it Forward"), I start demonstrating to them one hand 2 finger grip (Thumb and third finger) and shoot different 9mm/40S&W/45ACP pistols and they are shocked when they could control and manage to hit multiple targets with such "weak" grip without having pistols fly off their hands (As shown by Hollywood movies). I tell them that I do that do dispel the myth of not needing a death grip to control their pistols so their minds can properly approach the "art or mastery" of shooting (Yes, life is short so I start them off with "Zen" of shooting right at the first hour of 4 hour training session) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/flinching-drills.864546/page-2#post-11416785

< And those with visual issues, pay attention >

After they are confident they could control and manage pistols with mere two fingers, I have them shoot at 3-5 yards with their eyes closed. Yes, EYES CLOSED.

Why?

Because I want to dispel another myth that they do not need visual assistance to hit their targets at defensive shooting distances.

So after we establish "natural point of aim (POA)", we synchronize with point of impact (POI) so they can produce POI at anywhere on targets at POA at will, fast as they can shoot (I have them practice dry firing several hundred times before the range session so they do not move the front sight when the hammer/striker is released)

And like shooting with just two fingers, they are also shocked that they could shoot with eyes closed but when they consistently produce 3"-4" groups, I have them shoot with their eyes open to blow up the myth that eye sight is not necessary; and for some at times, it could be a distraction like when affected by chemical agents (Pepper spray) or darkness.

While front sight focus or clear target/fuzzy front sight shooting is good for more precise shooting, we have other shooting options like point shooting for those with visual/physical issues, especially for closer defensive shooting distances.

So when "visual assistance" to shooting is an issue, master other forms of shooting until arthritis kicks in then you may have to resort to binary trigger mastery.

 

[Pat Riot]

So when "visual assistance" to shooting is an issue, master other forms of shooting until arthritis kicks in then you may have to resort to binary trigger mastery.

Thank you.

I have been practicing point shooting and I must say I am getting much better at it.

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, Jerry Miculek's neurons fire and transmit at the same speed as ours

Nah..... nor do Bob Mundens.