Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Clint Smith on the 4 rules

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by 1KPerDay, Mar 1, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
  2. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,703
    Location:
    Arlington, Republic of Texas
    Great video. And he's mostly right. But I will ask this.

    Could someone explain, step by step, how to disassemble a Glock pistol, with the 4 rules remaining true the entire time.
     
  3. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
    Same rules as dry firing. You are WILLING to destroy whatever safe backstop you point your pistol at when you press the drigger to dry fire and/or disassemble your glock. You still treat the firearm as if it's loaded. You still have a safe backstop. You still don't point the weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy.
     
  4. robMaine

    robMaine Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2011
    Messages:
    251
    That or draw from an IWB holster without flagging yourself at all(even just a graze). I think the 4 rules a great, the issue is when people say you can NEVER EVER EVER break them, and then they go and add a bunch of exceptions.
     
  5. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    Messages:
    11,717
    Location:
    Johnson City, TN
    It usually takes a violation of two or more rules to come to grief. For example, you may "sweep" yourself or othere when unholstering, but if you keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target and intend to shoot, no harm is done. When dry-firing that Glock to strip it, even if you somehow managed to have a ND, if you had it pointed in a safe direction and at something expendable, no lasting harm is done.
     
  6. robMaine

    robMaine Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2011
    Messages:
    251
    This is how I have always treated them. But the "they can never be broken" crowd, drive me nuts.
     
  7. zedsdead

    zedsdead Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    The Lone Haranguer has it right. You have multiple layers of safety procedures. Being human, we are all likely to violate at least one, but by having the other rules to back them up, we can still avoid tragedy.
     
  8. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,703
    Location:
    Arlington, Republic of Texas
    Re-watch the video. He does not say "treat all guns as if they are loaded". He says "All guns are always loaded", which is how a lot of people around here say it as well.

    I am perfectly fine with treating a gun that I don't know is unloaded as if it is still loaded. That's good safety. But I think in facts, not dogma. Reality cannot be subverted or denied. A is A. An unloaded gun is an unloaded gun.

    I'm not attacking the idea of the 4 rules or gun safety. I am pointing out that stating the 4 rules are always true is factually incorrect.
     
  9. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
    Do you really think he's claiming that all guns are factually loaded? It's a matter of semantics. Quite obviously he's not claiming that his solid plastic training guns are actually loaded. Nor his unloaded firearms. But they are always treated as if they are loaded... or in simpler terms, to reinforce the point, "all guns are always loaded." Is it the way it's phrased that bothers you? I really don't see why people get worked up about it. But whatever. :)
     
  10. average_shooter

    average_shooter Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,269
    Location:
    mn
    It isn't so much about whether or not they're loaded, or even real (i.e. RedGuns, etc) it IS about training. If you get sloppy and careless in training and practice, you will be sloppy and careless when the gun is hot. That's why he says he won't even point a fake gun at someone and won't allow it to happen to him. It's about repetitive training.

    I once read somewhere it goes like this:

    Amateurs practice until they get it right, professionals train until they can't get it wrong.
     
  11. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,703
    Location:
    Arlington, Republic of Texas
    Yeah, to answer your question, it does bother me. Words mean things. I do get bothered when people deliberately state things that are not correct.
     
  12. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,651
    There is no doubt about the wisdom of the four rules but I also question how we reconcile that with the benefits of F on F training with airsoft or simunitions. It seems there are some benefits to that type of training same as that of fake knives and such.
    Also agree on the point made that it almost always requires failure of two of the rules to become catastrophic.
     
  13. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    4,524
    I am not "willing" to destroy anything in my house. A safe direction is relitive.
     
  14. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    46,764
    Location:
    Alabama
    You know what he means, and always treating guns as if they are loaded is the lesson. To argue the exact wording is silly and only detracts from the important point of the lesson.

    I am as OCD as anyone, and really uptight about people repeating something exactly as I stated it if they quote me, but to argue this is counterproductive.

    KISS

    Guns are always loaded. Always treat guns as if they are loaded.

    Take your pick, but get the point across. It is a very important one.

    Yea, one is not literally correct. Get over it. It is a fine video. What does it do for you to nitpick and fuss about it. :)


    .
     
  15. Blackstone

    Blackstone Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    718
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Great video, he puts it perfectly. Hope to be able to visit Thunder Ranch some time
     
  16. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    12,705
    Location:
    In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine.
    They are redundant for a reason, and real life combat may well prove them difficult if not impossible to follow, but the idea is to make them the top priority. Clint Smith has also done demnstrations of how to do things like emergency one handed drawing from IWB while on your back and emergency one-handled racking and reloading all WITHOUT FLAGGING YOURSELF. If you feel that drawing from IWB is impossible without flagging yourself, I would recommend that you do it in a mirror to see how you are doing it. I can absolutely draw from my Crossbreed Supertuck without pointing at my butt.
     
  17. pbearperry

    pbearperry Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Messages:
    864
    Location:
    The Peoples Republic of Massachusetts
    Under stress you will do what you were trained to do.You cannot deviate.Safe direction and fingers off the trigger would stop all stupid discharges.Even though you know the gun is unloaded,treat it as if it is loaded.If you cannot live by these simple rules,you will fail at some point.
     
  18. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
    fair enough
     
  19. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,135
    It is called making sure the gun is unloaded.

    Then making sure again.

    The 'four rules' are not intended to apply to every thing you have to do with a gun, like stripping it down.

    They are simple rules when you are engaged in using the gun for what it was designed for.
    Not for when you are forced to take it apart for maintenance.

    And if you have to 'fire' the gun to take it down, you make sure it is unloaded, then point in in a safe direction.

    Once it has been disassembled it is not longer functional.

    You can even look down the barrel without danger.
     
  20. Stevie-Ray

    Stevie-Ray Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    Mitchi-gun, the Sunrise Side
    Oh no, they are always loaded according to Jeff Cooper. Cooper in his arrogance actually poo-pooed those of us that added until you have proven they are not, claiming that it watered down the original strength of the rule or some such nonsense. Well, OK Jeff, I guess you can never clean your guns, as you would never disassemble a loaded gun would you? You can't have it both ways. As was said, words mean things.
     
  21. robMaine

    robMaine Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2011
    Messages:
    251
    I highly doubt that there isn't some point of your draw, where if your weapon discharged you wouldn't even graze yourself, I know it is a silly point to argue, but making rules with preplanned exceptions is silly.
     
  22. Fu-man Shoe

    Fu-man Shoe Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    199
    I like this guy quite a bit.

    I've heard the name, knew he was a shooting instructor, but that was it.

    He's got a great speaking style. I'm gonna take most of that to heart and start preaching it as well. It's always the "unloaded" gun that you've got to watch out for.
     
  23. JohnGault

    JohnGault member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    48
    Never is a very long time, but it is just an instant in eternity!
     
  24. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,570
    Location:
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Indeed. The four rules are a good starting place, but they really are just a framework from which to work based on common sense. You can't say "all guns are always loaded" and stick to it without violating that rule on many occasions.

    Besides, as another person said - I like to deal in FACTS and reality. "Treat every gun as if it is loaded until you have personally verified otherwise." is good safe gun handling. "All guns are always loaded" is not only patently false, it also goes down a line of thinking that I find absolutely unacceptable: that it is ok to lie to people (or yourself) as long as the lie generates an outcome you want.
     
  25. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    12,703
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
    This is one of my favorites from him. Malfunction clearances

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page