Closure of Doe Run Lead Smelter -- Firearms Context

[barnbwt]

"The Herculaneum smelter is currently the only smelter in the United States which can produce lead bullion from raw lead ore that is mined nearby in Missouri's extensive lead deposits, giving the smelter its "primary" designation"
Now, if they were shuttering the nearby mine, I might worry (even slightly) about the lead supply being affected. That it isn't tells me all I need to know. Fact is, lead (and all) metal smelting form ore is a nasty business; it's simply hard to do it cleanly enough to coexist with communities to the standards which we are accustomed (i.e. living next to a plant shouldn't have a measurable impact on your test readings --like it or not, that's the "acceptable standard" in our modern society). Foreign lands can do it dirtier, so they can do it cheaper, and they are willing to live (or not) with the consequences for the time being. We don't smelt our own lead from ore, we don't make much of the raw PVC we use for everything, either. Same reasons.

You guys complaining about how the "liberals" and whatnot are anti industry and want us in grass huts need to take a look at the Russian back country to see what government-driven industry will do in the hands of "leftists." People skim kerosene leaking from tanks and pipes from the surface of their water supplies, massive areas are blighted from all sorts of chemical (and nuclear) fallout from industrial facilities/disasters, and the Aral Sea is nearly dried after irrigation diversion, threatening to expose decades of discarded radioactive waste at the bottom. People seem to forget we allowed Lake Eerie to catch on fire, once

"Future wars will be fought with lead free ammunition."
They already are; from a strategic perspective, massed enemies are humbled by precision guided munitions packing high explosives.

From Wiki: Herculaneum was an ancient Roman town destroyed by volcanic pyroclastic flows in 79 A.D

I thought the name was familiar. For some reason I was thinking it was the name for elemental Mercury (I forgot the symbol was Hg). Should totally be the name for a tough or heavy metal, though

TCB

 

[peacemaker45]

I used to haul lead ingots out of both the primary smelter at Herculaneum, and the secondary one at Boss, MO. I'll tell you, the Herky plant was not a comfortable place to be. You know the sickly sweet taste you get in the back of your throat when you're shooting cast bullets, the one hat let's you know "Man, I just got a nice dose of lead for the day.". That's what every breath around Herky was like.

It's also comforting to be walking around in shorts and a t-shirt, when the employees are on respirators. Supposedly, truckers were only there occasionally, and thus didn't need to be concerned. Of course, they didn't realize that many of us were regulars, and spent nearly as much time sitting in their lines and nailing down dunnage as their workers spent at work.

Anyhow, as an American and a shooter, would I prefer that they had upgraded or replaced Herky, rather than closing it? Yes. Am I going to cry that it is closed? No. The place was awful. Old and nearing decrepitude.

And that doesn't touch the fact that most lead used in this country comes from recycling, and not virgin ore. Most of those "vast lead deposits," in MO haven't been worked in years.

So closing a primary smelter doesn't mean the sky is falling, all you little chickens.

 

[tipoc]

If in 6 months we've run out of bullets and we go over to carbon fiber bullets I'll say "Darn it I shoulda listened to those fellas on THR and started a lead hysteria ammo buying spree!"

If in one year the U.S. military is buying all it's bullets from the French and has gone back to cross bows I'll say..."Darn it! I really shoulda listened to those fellas over to THR who said that all the lead smelters were closed and the Pentagon would be stripping the old lead paint off my house to melt it down for bullets!"

Now, just as ammo is becoming more available, I gotta run into this rumor which will send a batch of knuckleheads into another ammo buying hysteria!

Ah well...

tipoc

 

[hso]

Closure of the Doe Run smelter is all about business, and with the production exceeding consumption there's less need for lead and lower profits to be made (especially for primary smelters) - http://www.resourceinvestor.com/2013/09/19/lead-glut-diminishing-as-bear-market-shuts-smelter

And even the most pro-2A cartoonist out there is changing their story.

 

[shep854]

Agreed; kudos to Chris Muir (Daybyday cartoonist) for being willing to correct himself!

 

[NukemJim]

Much of the medicines they get for cancer treatments, thallium stress testing, etc. come in vials in lead shielding.

I work in this industry. While lead used to be readily available this is no longer the case.

Due to concerns about exposure to lead most containers now are completely enclosed in plastic and used many times. They are no longer one use items. Even the minority of lead containers that are not completely sealed in plastic (just painted or exposed when the container is open) and are one use items are to be returned to the supplier. Not sure what they do with them.

As for the the radiation concern, unless you are stealing them some way, it is not a concern. They will be A) checked for residual radioactivity multiple times prior to being let out of the "Controlled" area where they are stored and B) due to the short half life of the radionuclides involved the material is purposely held long enough that the amount of radiation being emitted is not higher than "Background"*.

Maybe one of the radiopharmacies (GE, Cardinal, Malinkrot) could be used as a source,I do not know that end of the business.

But unlikely your local hospital, cancer center will be able to help you any more.

NukemJim


(*There is always a very small amount or radiation present everywhere at all times. Think of it like background noise.)

 

[StandingTall]

For all of you thinking about hording vast amounts of bullets (again!)...here's this little tidbit from Sierra Bullet Company:

"Should not affect us at all. That (Herculaneum MO plant) is a ore smelting plant only and we do not use lead that came directly from ore. None of our lead came from that facility and the facilities we do use are still up and going strong. Thanks!"

We have enough problems getting ammunition and reloading components as it is without "doomsday preppers" freaking out again.

 

[hso]

One of the great things about THR is that when things like this spread across the errornet members can point out those errors, debate and discuss the points, and do so without flaming each other.

Nice to see DBD doing it on their own and that the ammunition and bullet manufacturers adding light to the issue.

 

[tipoc]

Lead can be mined and smelted safely for both the workers and the surrounding community. The same is also true of coal, uranium, mercury, and many other natural elements and minerals that are necessary for industry but which is some concentrations are harmful to human health. But to do this safely can cut into the owners profit margin so there is a tension in society about this issue. Lower costs and prices versus health and safety. The EPA regs could be nitpicky and overdone, but that's another discussion.

Doe Run is not "the last lead smelter". Others are up and operating. It is an old smelter that could no longer operate safely and still make money for it's owners. Steel mills have shut down for less. No conspiracy, business.

If there was a hint that the U.S. military and law enforcement would run out of lead for it's bullets that situation would change quickly.

If there was a danger posed to the U.S. metal mining and smelting industry posed by overzealous EPA regulators and liberal politicians you can be sure that that industry, many times over more powerful than the firearms industry, would make a few phone calls and visits and the situation would be rectified.

tipoc

 

[alsaqr]

The EPA/Doe Run settlement:

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/cases/civil/mm/doerun.html

The lawsuit:

The trial is slated for July 2013. Two years will have passed since a jury ordered former owners of the Doe Run smelter to pay $358 million to 16 plaintiffs who said they suffered health effects from lead poisoning that the company knew existed.

That award was on top of a confidential settlement reached before the trial with the smelter's current owners, Doe Run Resources Corp.

The former owners have appealed the verdict.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_415c0f78-03ee-5ed1-b533-75c1921ea038.html

 

[BobTheTomato]

One of the problems with this location is odds are the surrounding area is already heavily contaminated with lead from the 1900s time frame.

As I understand it, with China increasing their lead production lead prices are only around $1 per pound there just might not be money in it. On a side note I am curious about how much is recovered as a trace metal from other mining such as silver.

 

[StandingTall]

Sierra Bullets weighs in again:

http://sierrabullets.wordpress.com/...he-lead-smelting-plant-affect-sierra-bullets/

 

[clutch]

I used to haul lead ingots out of both the primary smelter at Herculaneum, and the secondary one at Boss, MO. I'll tell you, the Herky plant was not a comfortable place to be. You know the sickly sweet taste you get in the back of your throat when you're shooting cast bullets, the one hat let's you know "Man, I just got a nice dose of lead for the day.". That's what every breath around Herky was like.

I'm not doubting the Herky plant was a nasty place but do you really taste lead when you shoot cast bullets?

 

[Pilot]

Sierra Bullets weighs in again:

http://sierrabullets.wordpress.com/...he-lead-smelting-plant-affect-sierra-bullets/

While that article was positive about supply, these two lines jumped out at me.

Could the lack of primary lead create a little more demand for recycled lead? Sure, but how much is unknown. Could this increase in demand also create an increase in price? Sure, but again, by how much is unknown at this time.

I am a businessman, and uncertainty creates price increases, and that reduces demand. What Sierra is saying here is that while supply of lead may not be affected short term, there is more uncertainty, and therefore risk in future production. More risk means higher prices. This is the intentions of the EPA, and Feds. To make the shooting sports more expensive, and therefore limit their use.

 

[Torian]

I used to haul lead ingots out of both the primary smelter at Herculaneum, and the secondary one at Boss, MO. I'll tell you, the Herky plant was not a comfortable place to be. You know the sickly sweet taste you get in the back of your throat when you're shooting cast bullets, the one hat let's you know "Man, I just got a nice dose of lead for the day.". That's what every breath around Herky was like.

It's also comforting to be walking around in shorts and a t-shirt, when the employees are on respirators. Supposedly, truckers were only there occasionally, and thus didn't need to be concerned. Of course, they didn't realize that many of us were regulars, and spent nearly as much time sitting in their lines and nailing down dunnage as their workers spent at work.

Anyhow, as an American and a shooter, would I prefer that they had upgraded or replaced Herky, rather than closing it? Yes. Am I going to cry that it is closed? No. The place was awful. Old and nearing decrepitude.

And that doesn't touch the fact that most lead used in this country comes from recycling, and not virgin ore. Most of those "vast lead deposits," in MO haven't been worked in years.

So closing a primary smelter doesn't mean the sky is falling, all you little chickens.

No, I've never had that "sweet taste" in the back of my mouth from being around molten lead.

I will be taking your word for it

 

[PRM]

No, I've never had that "sweet taste" in the back of my mouth from being around molten lead.

I have never experienced that either??? I did eat a Hershey's bar in my truck one time while driving to the range.

 

[itsa pain]

"The Herculaneum smelter is currently the only smelter in the United States which can produce lead bullion from raw lead ore that is mined nearby in Missouri's extensive lead deposits, giving the smelter its "primary" designation"
Now, if they were shuttering the nearby mine, I might worry (even slightly) about the lead supply being affected. That it isn't tells me all I need to know. Fact is, lead (and all) metal smelting form ore is a nasty business; it's simply hard to do it cleanly enough to coexist with communities to the standards which we are accustomed (i.e. living next to a plant shouldn't have a measurable impact on your test readings --like it or not, that's the "acceptable standard" in our modern society). Foreign lands can do it dirtier, so they can do it cheaper, and they are willing to live (or not) with the consequences for the time being. We don't smelt our own lead from ore, we don't make much of the raw PVC we use for everything, either. Same reasons.

You guys complaining about how the "liberals" and whatnot are anti industry and want us in grass huts need to take a look at the Russian back country to see what government-driven industry will do in the hands of "leftists." People skim kerosene leaking from tanks and pipes from the surface of their water supplies, massive areas are blighted from all sorts of chemical (and nuclear) fallout from industrial facilities/disasters, and the Aral Sea is nearly dried after irrigation diversion, threatening to expose decades of discarded radioactive waste at the bottom. People seem to forget we allowed Lake Eerie to catch on fire, once

"Future wars will be fought with lead free ammunition."
They already are; from a strategic perspective, massed enemies are humbled by precision guided munitions packing high explosives.

From Wiki: Herculaneum was an ancient Roman town destroyed by volcanic pyroclastic flows in 79 A.D

I thought the name was familiar. For some reason I was thinking it was the name for elemental Mercury (I forgot the symbol was Hg). Should totally be the name for a tough or heavy metal, though

TCB

you say that guys complain about liberals ruining industry then you say you should see how the state run Russian industry has been ruined by communists??? you do not get more leftist then Russian run industry

 

[tipoc]

What Sierra is saying here is that while supply of lead may not be affected short term, there is more uncertainty, and therefore risk in future production.

Sierra did not say that. Quite the opposite. They stated that the supply of lead for their bullets comes from recycled lead and not from primary sourced lead. They did not speculate on the future price of lead. You did though.

More risk means higher prices. This is the intentions of the EPA, and Feds. To make the shooting sports more expensive, and therefore limit their use.

The closure of the Mo. smelter does not directly effect the price of lead for bullets or the price of bullets. No bullet manufacturers used lead from that plant that I am aware of. Sierra did not, nor Barnes. Your contention that the plant was closed primarily or even partly to limit the supply of lead and thus drive up the price to make it harder for shooters to afford ammo has no facts to back it up.

Of all the lead produced in the U.S. only about 5% is used in the production of ammunition.

You can read a bit more about lead production here...

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/lead/mcs-2012-lead.pdf

or here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead

It is the case that anti-gunners are attacking traditional ammo hoping to limit it's use and make it scarce for shooters. But there is no evidence that the closure of the Mo. plant was a part of a grand scheme.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation explains those attacks very well.

http://www.nssf.org/search/?q=lead+for+bullets&submit=Search

Truth is a useful weapon in the defense of our rights. Rumor and innuendo are not. They, in fact, get in the way.

tipoc

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Doe Run only produced 8% of this countrys lead usage. The remaining 92% came from outside the US. Those trying to use the shutdown of the Doe Run smelter as a way to impart fear and say there will be no ammo are not our friends. They are trying to use us which is dishonest. At least the gun grabbers are honest enought to tell us they want our guns. These people pushing the lies around Doe Run should never ever receive support from us.

 

[Schwing]

Doe Run only produced 8% of this countrys lead usage.

Not only that, but the vast majority of lead used in the U.S. comes from recovered lead these days. It is just cheaper and less costly to use recycled lead than to mine it and smelt it.

while I am not an expert on this subject, if a was a betting man, I would bet that this will not impact the prices or availability of ammo lead in the slightest.

 

[tipoc]

while I am not an expert on this subject, if a was a betting man, I would bet that this will not impact the prices or availability of ammo lead in the slightest.

Likely you'd win the bet.

What I figure does effect the price and availability has been a decade of war, the tremendous growth of law enforcement in the U.S. and their use of ammo, and panic buying and hoarding of ammo.

tipoc

 

[Carl N. Brown]

When I was a kid, we would travel from to Louisa KY on Labor Day weekend to stay on the dairy farm aunt Gladys and uncle Fred; we passed through coal mining country, there was a stream I always joking refered to as being the S--t Creek that everyone talked about being up without a paddle. Last few times we went up, it was actually cleaner.

We had a cement plant on the west end of downtown. I had to leave a car with a garage until I had the money to pay for the repairs. When I picked it up the finish had been damged by fallout from the cement plant; I learned that was a common problem. The plant eventually shut down and the problem went away, meantime, Rudi moved his auto shop to the east end of town.

We also had an iron foundry downtown that shut down. Most of the land still lies unused because the cleanup turned out to be more complicated. Large swaths appear to check out OK, then some tester hits a hot spot.

When the card factory I was working at shut down I was offered a job at a battery factory. Knowing a few people who worked there who had shown me acid burns and gave me complaints about lead exposure and safety equipment so cumbersome it hindered meeting production requirements, I declined.

I am not exactly an eco nut, but I have had to live and work around the consequences of environmental thoughtlessness.

 

[hso]

What Sierra is saying here is that while supply of lead may not be affected short term, there is more uncertainty, and therefore risk in future production.

That isn't what they said or meant. The recycle lead supply is stable, Sierra (like the vast majority of companies) uses recycled lead, they're not worried. Simple message clearly communicated. Spinning what they published to sell a different message won't go unchallenged in the face of Sierra and other bullet makers discounting the efforts to panic the public.

 

[peacemaker45]

No, I've never had that "sweet taste" in the back of my mouth from being around molten lead.

I will be taking your word for it

Maybe I'm hypersensitive? But yeah, I do notice a distinct taste/smell, particularly at indoor ranges, but also sometimes outdoors, when the smoke cloud (cast bullets being kinda smoky,) blows in your face. I've never actually licked a bullet to see if what I'm tasting is indeed lead. I just assume it is, since back in the Ye Olde Days, they used "sugar of lead," as a sweetener.

It may just be an opportunity thing, too. I shoot cast bullets in both SASS and USPSA matches, so I've had lots of chances to notice.

 

[TJ AK-74]

Lead prices have curiously shot up 6% in the last month.

This was true when 748 posted it on October 30th, but since then, Lead prices have retreated by about 4-5%.