My son was arrested for DUI a couple of years ago in Utah and he had a 223 rifle behind the seat and they seized it. I can't remember all the details but the possession of the weapon did increse the fine, and it was held by the Sherrif for about a month. I'm sure Mitch will be able to help him if anyone can.
Co worker pulled over with gun in car- no CCW.
- Thread starter Ben Shepherd
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No4Mk1*
Member
I consider a gun in the glove box to be keeping and bearing, but I'm not in charge.
I also know that 80mg/dL of ethanol is not enough to significantly impair many drivers. It varies from person to person.
I also know that 80mg/dL of ethanol is not enough to significantly impair many drivers. It varies from person to person.
Ben Shepherd
Member
Matt Payne:
His procedure was to load it on nights he was closing his bar and making a night deposit, and to keep it unloaded at all other times. He was not working his bar the night in question.
Everyone interested: Post any questions you want, I'll answer if I can. But please, easy on the criticism folks. Believe me he's giving himself enough at this point.
His procedure was to load it on nights he was closing his bar and making a night deposit, and to keep it unloaded at all other times. He was not working his bar the night in question.
Everyone interested: Post any questions you want, I'll answer if I can. But please, easy on the criticism folks. Believe me he's giving himself enough at this point.
minnesota oldie
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If you make a post to get help or sympathy for some one who is being screwed by system, OK, but don't expect a lot for someone who just screws up, and nice guy or not that is just what he did.
sturmruger
Member
I hope that he can get a good lawyer and this will turn out ok. Sounds like he did a few things that weren't smart, but if he comes out of this with no felony maybe he will become a little more proactive about learing proper gun handling and some of the misc laws that are good to know.
sevenpoint62mm
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Ben I got bad news for you. Not sure how the law is out in Utah but in Texas DUI is very serious. Serious enough to cost you your CCW. But this guy has way way bigger problems. If they say that gun was used in a crime (whether it was or wasn't) your friend is not going to be able to fight it. On a jury would you believe a guy that had the right and reason to a CCW was illegally carrying an unmarked gun used in a crime while drunk? :banghead: It look bad my friend, but hindsight is a luxury none of us has til its worthless. Pray for your friend and his lawyer, hope he beats it. 
GigaBuist
Member
Here in Michigan a DWI/DUI is enough to keep you from getting a CCW for 3 years. Your second one is 8 years. Note: that's not comitting DUI while in posession of a gun. Just any offense.
Used to be (2001 - 2003) that any misdemeanor would prevent you from getting a CCW for 3 years.
Posession of a pistol while intoxicated is also a crime here.
Carrying a concealed weapon is a felony, possible 5 years in prison.
I know a guy that did pretty much the same thing as your co-worker about 20 years ago in Michigan. Convicted felon, total loss of RKBA.
Used to be (2001 - 2003) that any misdemeanor would prevent you from getting a CCW for 3 years.
Posession of a pistol while intoxicated is also a crime here.
Carrying a concealed weapon is a felony, possible 5 years in prison.
I know a guy that did pretty much the same thing as your co-worker about 20 years ago in Michigan. Convicted felon, total loss of RKBA.
Ben Shepherd
Member
Monday (6/7/04, 6:15 AM MST):
What I have figured out so far:
If they stick him with the loaded/concealed part, it'll be a class A misdemeanor. If they only get him with unloaded/concealed, it'll be a class B misdemeanor. Class A conviction means no attempt at record expungement for 5 years, class B can be expunged after 3 years.
So at least the gun part isn't as serious as I first thought.
I am not an attorney, the above is based on my interpretation of Utah criminal code, and contains no legal advice of any consequence.
As for the DUI portion: No word yet.
What I have figured out so far:
If they stick him with the loaded/concealed part, it'll be a class A misdemeanor. If they only get him with unloaded/concealed, it'll be a class B misdemeanor. Class A conviction means no attempt at record expungement for 5 years, class B can be expunged after 3 years.
So at least the gun part isn't as serious as I first thought.
I am not an attorney, the above is based on my interpretation of Utah criminal code, and contains no legal advice of any consequence.
As for the DUI portion: No word yet.
fjolnirsson
Member
So, would either of those misdemeanor charges cause loss of his RKBA?
Ben Shepherd
Member
Not sure yet about total loss of RKBA(still reading up on it), but CCW is definately out unless he gets his record expunged.
What I do know for sure:
Utah, do not ever put a gun(loaded or unloaded) in the glove compartment or console of your vehichle without a valid CCW, period.
Big no-no in several different ways.
What I do know for sure:
Utah, do not ever put a gun(loaded or unloaded) in the glove compartment or console of your vehichle without a valid CCW, period.
Big no-no in several different ways.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
It is SO easy to get CCW in Utah. So easy.
However, I believe CCW is null and void if intoxicated.
Check out the "illegal transport" angle. Much less of a charge.
However, I believe CCW is null and void if intoxicated.
Check out the "illegal transport" angle. Much less of a charge.
Well assuming the facts are as presented, then this guy is screwed.
First the search of the vehicle was incident to arrest and therefore legal. So he's going to claim the cops planted evidence? Doubtful, because they won't want to lose their job, go to jail, and get sued.
Second, you say his claim is that he carried the gun for protection from the bar to the bank. Then he claims he would unload the gun, take the ammo inside to his home, but leave the gun in the car on nights he wasn't making a deposit. No prosecutor, judge, or jury is likely to buy that. If he took the ammo inside why didn't he take the gun inside?
Also, he remembers that he unloaded the gun, but he forgot the gun was in the glovebox? Again, going to have a hard to time to get anyone to believe that story.
As others have said, drinking and driving, and drinking and guns don't mix.
First the search of the vehicle was incident to arrest and therefore legal. So he's going to claim the cops planted evidence? Doubtful, because they won't want to lose their job, go to jail, and get sued.
Second, you say his claim is that he carried the gun for protection from the bar to the bank. Then he claims he would unload the gun, take the ammo inside to his home, but leave the gun in the car on nights he wasn't making a deposit. No prosecutor, judge, or jury is likely to buy that. If he took the ammo inside why didn't he take the gun inside?
Also, he remembers that he unloaded the gun, but he forgot the gun was in the glovebox? Again, going to have a hard to time to get anyone to believe that story.
As others have said, drinking and driving, and drinking and guns don't mix.
The Real Hawkeye
member
He's not likely to get much sympathy, even from a pro-gun jury, if he was actually drunk at the wheel. Absent that, he could have hoped for a de facto jury nullification based on a belief by the jury in the RTKABA. I agree with DMF on this. He's probably screwed. He hasn't lost his RTKABA, but he's probably lost the government's recognition of that right, which comes close to amounting to the same thing from a practical standpoint.
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The Real Hawkeye
member
LOL. Yes, it appears that you are coming around.
To the extent that we agree, I hold out hope for you.Edward429451
member
Aw, we've all done dumb things. It doesn't make him any worse than any of us or mean that he shouldn't have a RKBA...
But they ARE out to get us, one at a time.
Foresight. build your defense before the incident. What if what if what if...
What if he hadn't been DUI? My sympathies for your friends lack of foresight. Hope he fares well and learns from his indiscretions.
But they ARE out to get us, one at a time.
Foresight. build your defense before the incident. What if what if what if...
What if he hadn't been DUI? My sympathies for your friends lack of foresight. Hope he fares well and learns from his indiscretions.
Roadkill Coyote
Member
Search incident to arrest and a custodial inventory are two seperate things. If they towed the car, then they probably did both, and have two legal rationales for finding the gun.
On the other hand your friend shouldn't be making any assumptions about the legality, or relative strength, of any part of the process without a lawyer. After all, many a fine case has been brought low by poor report writing and the like.
Life is full of these learning experiences. I do hope your friend is quick on the uptake
On the other hand your friend shouldn't be making any assumptions about the legality, or relative strength, of any part of the process without a lawyer. After all, many a fine case has been brought low by poor report writing and the like.
Life is full of these learning experiences. I do hope your friend is quick on the uptake
gunsmith
member
I hope this
will encourage your friend to quit drinking and take up the good fight,RKBA!
Good luck to him,you know if he started going to his church whatever that is and went to AA on his own accord the court may go easier on him.
IANAL though.
will encourage your friend to quit drinking and take up the good fight,RKBA!
Good luck to him,you know if he started going to his church whatever that is and went to AA on his own accord the court may go easier on him.
IANAL though.
Aikibiker
Member
Ben Shepherd,
I'm sorry to hear about your friend's predicament. I hope everything turns out all right for him.
Strange though Having a gun in the glove box of your car here in FL is not a crime. Things sure are different in them thar Northern states.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend's predicament. I hope everything turns out all right for him.
Strange though Having a gun in the glove box of your car here in FL is not a crime. Things sure are different in them thar Northern states.
Ben Shepherd
Member
Latest:
It's looking like he was not DUI. If this is the case, then the gun charge will go away, as they had no probable cause.
(Assuming I understand the law correctly in this instance.)
It's looking like he was not DUI. If this is the case, then the gun charge will go away, as they had no probable cause.
(Assuming I understand the law correctly in this instance.)
Ben, you stated earlier that Utah law says they can arrest based on refusal to submit to field sobriety testing. If they had PC for the stop, and reasonable suspicion to conduct a field testing, and he did in fact refuse the testing (assuming what you've stated about Utah law and refusing field sobriety tests is correct) then they did have a legal basis for the search incident to arrest. The gun is unlikely to get suppressed.
Not trying to pee in your cornflakes, and I'm NOT a lawyer, but things don't look good for your friend based, on what you've presented here.
Not trying to pee in your cornflakes, and I'm NOT a lawyer, but things don't look good for your friend based, on what you've presented here.
sumpnz
Member
One thing. Even if he was below .08 he could still get a DUI conviction if they can show that even at that lower level he was impared. The "legal limit" just sets a bar that, when exceeded, guarantees a conviction. But, he may be able to get off because at this point, if he was in fact below the limit, it will be up to the prosecuter to prove he was impared. Without a video of him driving erratically, that'll be tough.
I agree with DMF that getting off from the DUI will probably not get the gun excluded from evidence. But, if he was not DUI, that may make it easier to convice a jury that gun, in fact, was not loaded which would at least minimize the damage.
IANAL.
I agree with DMF that getting off from the DUI will probably not get the gun excluded from evidence. But, if he was not DUI, that may make it easier to convice a jury that gun, in fact, was not loaded which would at least minimize the damage.
IANAL.
Roadkill Coyote
Member
Questions?
The conclusion that your friend is out of trouble is as premature as the conclusion that he was in it. Unless his lawyer told him so. Period. But there are some questions that might make it easier to comment on things.
The conclusion that your friend is out of trouble is as premature as the conclusion that he was in it. Unless his lawyer told him so. Period. But there are some questions that might make it easier to comment on things.
- What traffic offense was the original stop for?
- You said that your friend refused Roadsides, did he take or refuse any other tests, specifically blood or breath? (If breath was administered, what was the resulting BRAC?)
- Have you looked at a copy of the arresting officer's report, and did it contain a list of facts and circumstances that led the officer to reasonably believe that you friend was to the slightest degree, impaired by the consumption of alcohol? (Things like poor driving, red eyes, flush face slurred speech, lack of coordination, any odor of an alcoholic beverage, or any other evidence including cans or bottles in the car.)
- When did the arresting officer realize that your friend was sober, and that he was making a mistake? (Probable Cause may, or may not, be effected by a later discovery of you friends sobriety. Probable Cause is determined by the facts and circumstances that were available to the arresting officer at the time of arrest.)
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artherd
member
So, he wasn't DUI. Very good.
Then the arrest for suspected DUI is called into question. Why was it made? If you overturn that, you overturn the search incident to that arreast that found the gun.
Good luck, and remember to tell your friend "There ain't much as useless as an unloaded gun!"
Then the arrest for suspected DUI is called into question. Why was it made? If you overturn that, you overturn the search incident to that arreast that found the gun.
Good luck, and remember to tell your friend "There ain't much as useless as an unloaded gun!"
Ben Shepherd
Member
I haven't had any "first person" on any documentation yet. He's just giving me updates after talking with his attoney.
I'm trying not to get to involved or offer advice to him, just observe and report, because I AM NOT an attorney, and don't want to rock the boat.
Not sure exactly who his attorney is at this point, but it sounds like he's doing a good job for my co-worker
I'm trying not to get to involved or offer advice to him, just observe and report, because I AM NOT an attorney, and don't want to rock the boat.
Not sure exactly who his attorney is at this point, but it sounds like he's doing a good job for my co-worker
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