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Cock on close- why not?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Dreamcast270mhz, Apr 16, 2011.

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  1. Dreamcast270mhz

    Dreamcast270mhz Member

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    A cock on close rifle IMHO is much better in terms of reliability and accuracy because:

    Point of Aim is not as disrupted because you do not need to have a heavy force to cam a cocking piece AND extract a case.

    As said above, case extraction is easier on COC

    In addition it is cheaper and is easier to produce, no camming surfaces needed all is a good sear to make sure the cocking piece is properly seated.

    As for lock time and all that other BS, I've witnesses an SMLE well shot but properly bedded shoot better than a new .338 lapua magnum in a ten-shot battle. Poor lapua owner's first bolt action and he knows nothing about accurizing.
     
  2. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    I disagree.
    Requires more bolt shove to feed and cock an SMLE/Mk-l/Mkll or P14/P17.
    An SMLE/Mk-l may cycle faster than a Mauser action, it won't outshoot one all other things being equal.

    Only the Mk-ll offers a decent trigger set up, earlier Marks and the Enfields are horrible compared to most Mausers.

    If a shooter isn't capable of handling the recoil impulse of the .338 Lapua, no action made will help that shooter group well with that specialized cartridge.

    Nice try at an argument but your basis is marred by lack of knowledge and a hint of favoritism.
     
  3. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    way back in the forgotten depths of time when folks actually made decisions based on what these yahoos say some gun writer arbitrarily deemed cock on opening to be superior.


    Bottom line is IT DOESN'T MATTER there are dozens of far more critical factors that determine and have a baring on a rifles accuracy, performance and reliability than when the mainspring gets compressed
     
  4. Screamin'Eagle

    Screamin'Eagle Member

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    I prefer cock on opening, but your mileage may vary. Same with a bunch of other issues in the gun world and society in general. Not anything to get in a tizzy about.
     
  5. ball3006

    ball3006 Member

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    Ditto what RW Dale says...........however, I shoot left handed so a straight bolt cock on opening works better for me. I reach across the top of the action to work the bolt. I have several of both kinds of rifles and enjoy shooting each of them....chris3
     
  6. Dreamcast270mhz

    Dreamcast270mhz Member

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    I've found that in rapid fire I can shoot more accurately w/ a cock on close, even an arisaka which has a awkward bolt handle (i learned on my Mosin Nagant, a straight bolt)

    I find when shooting brass ammunition it is much easier to extract it with an SMLE than a Mosin Nagant (I plan on getting a COC bolt for it eventually) but with a Mauser it all depends on how clean the camming surfaces are. With ANY american bolt action I have trouble because they arent any good
     
  7. Caliper_Mi

    Caliper_Mi Member

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    Trigger setup and accurizing are separate matters from whether the bolt is cock on open or cock on close.

    Remember, the Mauser 95 action was cock on close...

    For most hunting/plinking, there isn't much difference. Just personal preference.
     
  8. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    I assume that you've shot them ALL then? If you're talking surplus mil rifles that's one thing, but that distinction was never made.
     
  9. fireman 9731

    fireman 9731 Member

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    I have handled a Spanish Mauser 95 and it was awkward to say the least. Maybe its just not what I'm used to but it seems like you have much more natural strength on opening than closing. The camming action of cocking on opening seems to require much less effort than trying to push an un-cocked bolt all the way forward, extend the main-spring, and then close it down while still applying forward force. It seems like it would be pretty easy to fumble in a tight spot.
     
  10. BrocLuno

    BrocLuno Member

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    I've got them both and i see no big difference. When the critter is down range, you find the energy to cock that sucker one way or another :)
     
  11. jkingrph

    jkingrph Member

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    I have a bunch of Swedish Model 96, plus one Husqvarna 46 sporter, a pure sporter built on the 96 action, which all cock on closing.

    After shooting with them for a bit, I am just as used to it as a cock on opening, and as far as operating the action, makes no difference to me. The only thing I can see is that the older action is not as advanced and has a much longer lock time than newer models.
     
  12. 4thPointOfContact

    4thPointOfContact Member

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    Back when things like that really mattered, the British took a hard look at what worked, what didn't work, and what was really needed to make a bolt action rifle work as a combat arm.

    That's why they ended up with that oddly shaped pistol grip on the SMLE and the cock on close which took advantage of the muscles in the arm rather than the muscles of the wrist.
     
  13. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    I prefer a 'cock on closing' bolt action particularly when shooting from prone. You have mechanical advantage and momentum working in your favor with 'cock on closing'. Two things you don't have with 'cock on opening'.
     
  14. 451 Detonics

    451 Detonics Member

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    Comparing the various military bolt guns of WWII I think many would put the Springfield on the top of the list. And to compare the cock on closing milsurp guns to any modern bolt gun is going to be a losing battle.

    This thread is heavily weighted with opinions and absolutes on the various favorite guns and severely lacking in facts.
     
  15. Dreamcast270mhz

    Dreamcast270mhz Member

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    Your opinion. I have shot and operated that are American made: 1903, R700, Model 69A, R510, Model 70. I find that all took some getting used to, a lot in comparison to my Mosin Nagant and WWI G98 war trophy.

    Thus far only the .22s of that are comfortable to operate. I have nothing against a good cock on opening (I have a great G98 and my brother a 1912 chilean) but from operating a T99 Arisaka, and shooting SMLE Mk3, Mosin COC mod and a Model 69 I can say I much prefer the COC mechanism due to it being easier to extract and during rapid fire, as it is less tiring.
     
  16. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    If it was the Lapua owners first bolt rifle, I'd say it probably wasn't the rifle's fault. Add to his inexperience the horrendous recoil of a cartridge like the 338 Lapua, and I can see that possibly the Enfield shooter could out shoot the Lapua shooter, but this would have nothing to do with the bolt system or the rifles. If I'm not mistaken, Lapua's are designed for precision, not speed.

    Regarding cock on closing, I have nothing against it and I can see where it might be a tad faster than cock on oopening, but I can't help but think that the cock on opening system has been all but replaced by the other for a reason.
    35W
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2011
  17. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    What you gain on one end, you lose on the other. With cock on opening, the heavy force comes at the beginning of the cycle, and you have plenty of time to recover. With a cock on closing action, the heavy force comes at the end of the cycle, just as you're trying to align your sights on target.

    Just the opposite -- the caming action of a cock on opening action breaks the case loose. Yet the prime reason for cock on closing is case extraction -- the British theory was that you didn't want to waste any muscle effort in cocking the mainspring as you were extracting the fired case.

    They had their physics backwards.

    And that is the point. The cock on opening action lowers the bent onto the sear as the bolt is rotated closed. Very little sear engagement is needed, and it is easy to produce a good trigger pull.

    With cock on closing, the bent is slammed into the sear (when operating the action rapidly) and a lot of sear engagement is needed to prevent a slam fire. That makes producing a good trigger pull more difficult.
     
  18. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    I have a K98, 1903, VZ24, and a No1 MkIII. I have no difficulty running any of them and really have no opinion on which is easier. I will tell you the No1 MkIII is faster, other than that they all have their strengths and weaknesses.
     
  19. WNTFW

    WNTFW Member

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    On a rem 700 I find the force needed to open the bolt negligible. More so if you use the thumb across the back of the stock as pivot point and bring your hand up under the bolt handle. Try it that way if you have a tendency to upset the rifle position when opening bolt. I just kept the original bolt knob and didn't replace it with a tactical one. In prone I keep my head on the rifle which tends to weight it down during cycling.
     
  20. Davek1977

    Davek1977 Member

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    Just......no. You are arguing that a Mosins action is better or smoother than that on my Model 70 or Remmy 700? REALLY? I don't know in what condition the 70 you shot was in, my &mm mag opens and operates FAR FAR FAR more smoothly and than any Mosin I've handled. Of course, given your previously disclosed disdain for American weaponry, I het there's more than a little bias behind that statement as well
     
  21. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    While I can agree that modern American made factory bolt actions suck as a general rule, the O.P. has obviously not handled any custom made American rifles,,,,,

    Broad statements are broad.

    There was a reason the Mauser brothers started with cock on closing, it was all that was available at that time.
    The benefits of cock on closing came later and the English were still living in the James Lee past when that happened.
     
  22. Dreamcast270mhz

    Dreamcast270mhz Member

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    @Davek

    I have handled and fired local guns at my range. They take care of their rifles but generally most of them have never cleaned the camming surfaces on the bolt, just oiled them which can aggravate the issue when we were using cheap brass. My brother and I keep our rifles religiously clean, every so often I scrub every contact point on the bolt to promote better movement. I showed the owner how his bolt wasn't necessarily dirty but where he could clean it to promote smoother action.

    Whoever had the comment earlier about COC making use of arm muscles rather than wrist, thats what I'm getting at. To cock a COO with arm muscles, you would need to put your forearm perpendicular to your wrist, not good during rapid fire.

    I have nothing against american bolt actions in general, just find every one I've used either too delicate or just not my cuppa tea. I have never had a good custom be offered for me to shoot, most of the custom rifles are Ar-15s and 10s anyways.
     
  23. jkingrph

    jkingrph Member

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    That's strange, my Swedes, cock on closing have a caming action when opening to extract case.
     
  24. BigG

    BigG Member

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    I guess preferring an autoloader isn't cricket?
     
  25. wally

    wally Member

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    I'm not much for bolt guns, but I've shot: Springfield '03, Enfield, Savage 10, Remington 700, Weatherby Vanguard, Mosin-Nagant & Manlicher-Schoheimer (sp?).

    To tell the truth, unless these are all either cock on close or cock on opening, I never realized there was a difference in cocking mode to consider.
     
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