Cocked and locked?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by MI2600, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. MI2600

    MI2600 Member

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    This area has probably been previously discussed, but there were 296 pages in the archives when I searched for "pocket carry"
    .
    I am in the process of changing my pocket carry gun from a S&W 442 to a Sig 365, with a manual safety. In the service we carried 1911s cocked and locked, holstered. I see no reason to not carry the 365 the same way.

    But, I would like to hear the pro's and cons.
     
  2. DustyGmt

    DustyGmt Member

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    I would have no problem carrying one in the pipe with a proper pocket holster and a DAO gun. Glock, LCP, 642, etc.... I'd prefer a gun with a heavier trigger pull for pocket carry.
     
  3. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    I feel if your going to carry one in the chamber is a must, there are way to many videos out there where it's very clear you may not always have time to chamber a round.
     
  4. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    365 would never fit in my pocket but with a decent holster and practice with the safety I don’t see an issue with it. Things like the Colt Mustang or Sig 938 and plenty others been doing the pocket cocked and locked for a long time now.

    I see you mentioned pros and cons.

    pro
    Can holster with safety on and have the added layer of safety

    con
    Need to practice with the safety more, or at least practice that one extra step along with normal practice.
     
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  5. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Most striker fired guns don't have safeties. The Sig 365 is offered with, and without one. Mine has the safety. For the record I'm not opposed to a Glock or similar gun carried in a proper holster with no manual safety. The triggers are heavy enough on Glocks that I'm OK with that.

    But I wouldn't use a Glock with a round in the chamber stored without a holster. I'm thinking night stand or glovebox duty. Used that way I keep an empty chamber and find I can chamber a round faster than I could pull it out of a holster not attached to my person.

    But many of the newer striker fired guns have smoother, lighter triggers than Glocks. The Sig is just one example. With those I feel better having a manual safety.
     
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  6. Encoreman

    Encoreman Member

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    Cocked and locked is the only way. I have a SIL that carrys a nice Kimber .45acp with an empty pipe and I have tried explaining if he didn't feel comfortable carrying cocked and locked he really didn't need to carry. Carrying on an empty chamber is setting oneself up for failure in a crunch. Typical reaction times does not afford most people to draw, rack the slide and begin shooting quickly enough. Plus in an adrenaline filled confrontation that would require use of your firearm, it wouldn't be the time to fumble racking the slide and still have a pistol without one in the pipe. That could spell a BAD day. Now this is a personal choice, stick with the revolver with all cylinder holes filled up. Keep your finger or any other object away from trigger and you are good to go. JMHO
     
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  7. WheelGunMan

    WheelGunMan Member

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    I think @Encoreman covered it pretty well. I wouldn't own a striker fired gun without a safety...especially for administrative handling. Once holstered in a good holster that covers the trigger then the safety can be switched off.
     
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  8. mokin

    mokin Member

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    One afternoon, after a match, some of us decided to play with a shot timer and some timed targets. We went through different scenarios, some drawing a gun from an open carry holster, others a concealed holster, having a loaded chamber vs. having to chamber a round. We all knew what was fastest, we were just having fun. It got down right hilarious having to draw from a concealed holster, rack the slide, and engage two targets. If anything can go wrong, it will.
     
  9. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Not only may you not have time, you may not have the physical ability.

    Carry with an empty chamber presumes that your assailant(s) is going to ALLOW you to chamber a round.

    A while back, a guy here in Ohio was jumped (for absolutely no sane reason) in a gas station. He was attacked from front and rear simultaneously. He was JUST able to draw, fire and hit the assailant to his front, whereupon the other attacker fled, leaving his partner for dead.

    The victim quite clearly said that were he not carrying with a loaded chamber, he would have been overcome, disarmed and probably killed.

    I've had people tell me they know how to chamber a round one handed. When I ask them if they've ever tried to do it while two or more people were trying to beat them to death, they inevitably refuse to answer.

    Carry how YOU want to, but don't assume that people trying to rob, rape, maim or kill you are going to do what's most convenient for YOU stopping what they're doing.
     
  10. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    The P365 cannot be carried "uncocked" with a loaded chamber, so is this meant to be a "chambered vs unchambered" thread, or a "manual safety vs none" thread?

    "Cocked-and-locked" normally refers to having the hammer (on a hammer-fired gun) fully cocked to the rear, and the gun's manual safety on. The chamber would be loaded.
     
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  11. DustyGmt

    DustyGmt Member

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    Somebody once told me on the issue of carrying chambered vs unchambered, saying you'll just chamber a round when the time comes because it only takes a second is like saying I'll just put my seatbelt on if I see I'm about to get into an accident.

    It really put things in perspective and made alot of sense.
     
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  12. RETG

    RETG Member

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    I was well trained on how to load a round into the chamber one handed; however, it takes seconds you might not have and if you are wounded and trying to perform the load one handed makes it even harder. I say that from someone who, in an alley, had his left arm broken with a baseball bat without warning, and the only thing that save my butt was training and a handgun with one in the chamber and no safety!



    As for "cocked and locked" I have always understood that to mean 1911 or similar. My Sig was not cocked but it was a DA/SA so cocking was not necessary; same as with my current H&K and Berettas, always one in the chamber, but never a "cocked" hammer.
     
  13. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    My 365 does not have a manual safety; I carry it holstered in weak hand front pocket.
    What about printing? No problem. My continuously untucked shirt covers top half of pocket and not only helps conceal the 365 but also Glock thats AIWB.
    Somebody probably thinking, I'm glad I don't live in a "bad area / war zone" or "need" two guns. Neither do I. ;) Options. (weak hand front pocket)
     
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  14. Craig_VA
    • Contributing Member

    Craig_VA Contributing Member

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    Yes, there are three different ongoing discussions; cocked and locked or uncocked; round in chamber or empty chamber; and manual safety or not. The context of each is different.
    Cocked and locked is specifically about 1911s and other single action hammer-fired pistols. More modern double action hammer fired pistols have decockers and are meant to be carried uncocked; first shot is double action and all subsequent shots are single action.

    Chambered round discussion is, as pointed out above, about how quickly you need to get into the fight. Tom Givens and other top level national instructors all say carry chambered: unchambered means unarmed.

    Manual safety or not is more about personal safety decision, and training. Must-have manual safety is part of the 1911 and SA cocked and locked configuration. More modern striker fired pistols include the Glocks without, and the S&W, Sig, and others offered in with- or without- design. I have had a couple of gun counter folks tell me most 1st time buyers want (or are advised) to get a striker fired with safety.
     
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  15. jarhead127

    jarhead127 Member

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    Yup, what he says! That term is used for SA semi's like the 1911. They say that's the safest way to carry a 1911, but NONE FOR ME, THANX! Myself, I hate a safety on any carry gun, the safety should be between your ears. But then, I'm a southpaw also, so that adds to the problem on most firearms. What I LOVE is a SA/DA semi but most are IMO too heavy for EDC. Soooo, my P-85 resides on the nitestand.

    My primary EDC is a Sig 365XL Romeo Zero (no safety) + I have absolutely no problem carryin it with one in the pipe. This is how they're meant to be carried.
     
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  16. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

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    Pros: 1) As many have pointed out, carrying with an empty chamber probably results in slower draw to first shot reaction times. 2) Carrying with an empty chamber results in one less round available should the need arise.

    Cons: It's most likely your body that will be damaged in a negligent discharge. Yes, "stuff" happens.

    Your mileage may vary but in my mind, a pocket carried gun is more of a get off me gun or a back up gun, not a 50 yard target gun. Given that, I would consider a fairly stiff, double action trigger with restrike capability and no manual safety the best firing mechanism in a pocket carried gun but apparently "the market" disagrees with me.
     
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  17. bersaguy

    bersaguy Member

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    I largely agree with the above posts. For pocket carry, its in a pocket holster, with one in the chamber. For me, personally, I prefer a DA trigger, no safety. I have not put the time and training into making the thumb sweep of the manual safety an automatic operation upon drawing from concealment. I would get tripped up repeatedly drawing my Springfield 911 from the pocket carried cocked & locked. That could have been remedied by more training. However, the OP states he carried a 1911 in the service, so there's a good chance sweeping the safety is already ingrained in him. I will say this, forgetting to sweep the safety and having to disengage it before firing is still faster than having to reach over and rack the slide before firing*
    *all things being equal, on a frictionless surface, in a vacuum.....yes I know there are some very specific circumstances with very specific people where that may not be the case, but I believe that holds true for the vast majority of folks
     
  18. DustyGmt

    DustyGmt Member

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    I've been carrying one in the chamber in my pocket daily for years. An LCP only comes with a 6rd magazine, that 7th round in the chamber could make a difference when we are talking about .380 micro's. Same with my G43, one in the pipe. I used to carry unchambered years ago but the case is just too strong for carrying chambered to ever go back. If you're incompetent, definitely dont go chambered, in fact don't even put bullets in your gun....
     
  19. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    I carry the P365 and added the safety. Before the 1911 existed, there were striker fired guns with thumb safeties. It's not a new concept at all.

    For the most part, guns with thumb safeties are not causing negligent discharges at the rates of guns with no thumb safety. I already have a 10mm x 18" titanium rod in one leg, I don't need a 9mm in the other.
     
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  20. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I used to carry my Colt's Government .380 (Series 80) hammer down on a loaded chamber. It had a very weak thumb safety and there was more than one day I found it knocked off when I got home, so I thought it was a better solution. However, doing 'draw, cock, present' drills with it, I realized how absolutely stupid that idea was, and I finally manned up and went searching for a better carry piece.

    Not a big fan of carrying a pistol outside of a holster (pocket carry) for any number of reasons. I carry Kahr pistols... striker-fired, no safety. I would no more carry one of those in my pocket, unholstered, than anything... and I think the Kahr has a relatively safe trigger, as long and weighted as it is. If you insist on pocket (or unholstered) carry, by necessity or otherwise, I would choose a pistol with a manual safety.
     
  21. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    For pocket carry I'd rather have a long, heavy-ish DAO trigger pull and no safety. I love my P938 and really wanted to get a P238 for pocket carry but the idea of that hammer fully energized while having my kids sit on my lab didn't agree with me, especially when one day when the P938 fell out of my holster when I was sitting on the pot and I noticed the safety was disengaged while it was lying on the floor. I can't imagine I failed to engage the safety because I was always so paranoid about it but I guess it's possible, or the fall somehow flicked it off, or it could have even happened while in my holster (though that seems unlikely).

    Anyway, I like my original LCP for pocket carry with a hammer that requires the trigger being pulled to energize the hammer.

    I was also recently in a defense course where a couple other guys had 1911's. More than once they drew and fired and nothing happened because they had failed to flip off the safety. Training can negate that but I think it's best to set yourself up for success by removing as many obstacles as possible to firing a gun under stress.
     
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  22. Madcap_Magician

    Madcap_Magician Member

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    I have always thought this was a bit of an odd decision, often because striker-fired polymer pistols with manual safety variants often seem to have the manual safety added as an afterthought. They're often small and/or poorly placed. A big extended paddle safety on a Government 1911 is a lot easier to swipe off, I suspect because the design has had a manual safety since forever and is designed to have one with a lot of thought put into the ergonomics of the safety. If I was going to carry a gun with a manual safety, I would just carry one that had been designed to have a manual safety rather than one where it was kluged into a design that wasn't really meant to have one.
     
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  23. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    I have a problem with this bit of advice. It’s by contention that if your firearm has a safety, especially a defensive firearm, you need to train your hands to disengage it on the draw, always.

    I’ve had enough thumb safeties managed to switch off in, even quality, holsters over the years to never trust one set to “off” in the holster to stay that way.

    Safety or no safety, I think it’s best to train to use whatever features your gun has.
     
  24. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Agree, most striker safeties I’ve tried/seen take an extra concentrated effort to disengage on the draw wherein most modern 1911 thumb safeties pretty much disengage as part of a good firing grip very naturally. There are a few out there that are OK but none have been close enough for me to want one.

    As noted there are a few striker triggers that I might feel better with a safety, the PPQ and 365 felt pretty close to that for me but I like Glocks and am very happy with their trigger and no safety, for me anyway YMMV as usual
     
  25. WheelGunMan

    WheelGunMan Member

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    I agree... with that being said, I do go thru that motion everytime I draw as that is how I trained prior to making the decision to disengage the safety after holstering. I have a couple of pistols that are DAO and DA/SA that have no safeties that I noticed that I also sweep when drawing. A good habit to have
     
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