Colorado Gun Control - Standard Capacity Magazines, Private Sales proposed bans

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So what! It's about our kids, grandkids, and then their grandkids. It's not about us and how many guns we can hide until we die. It's about them.

RELAX! That is not how I meant my statement. I was just trying to clarify some details of the Bill. This screws me too. I was going to move back to CO, and now that will not happen as I'm not leaving a good portion of my guns.

I understand this is a tragic loss for future generations, and anyone who wants to move to CO. We are all upset, and writing letters to Hick to not sign this travesty.
 
Alaska,

You obviously confuse convention (in this case, how legal and government documents were worded in the late 1700s) with belief. Studying some US history could benefit you, should you have mistaken idea that faith equals freedom. There is a specific reason for the separation of church and state- "church" has frequently been used to oppress and control, and the founding fathers did not want this.

This thread is a shining example of why progunners are frequently our own worst enemy. :rolleyes: We can't just talk about uniting to get anti-gunners out: no, we have to discuss drugs, political parties, and religion. :banghead: Are we really collectively this stupid? It's pretty simple. If a politician doesn't support RKBA, we fight them, regardless of their political party.

John
 
These men publicly attributed our rights to God which were called natural rights whether or not their private views differed. That is my belief as well that our rights our from God. Many called libertarian today do not. That is a specific difference between many of the writings of today's libertarians from those of our founding father's who are often called libertarian.
Even a cursory reading of Paine and Jefferson would disabuse you of this parochial notion. Further, the Deist god of Franklin and Washington has nothing in common with the "conservative right-wing christian" god. We need a big tent, just like the one that the founding fathers built.
 
Yes. United we must stand, putting aside our petty prejudices, or we will lose our remaining freedoms.
 
Get organized

As was just stated, you must get united. Even better, get organized. Once organized, you are powerful - politicians hate it and they have to listen.

I went to the God, Guns & the Constitution meeting held in Dallas this past Saturday and there was good advice. The key to winning on your positions is to have as much say in the primaries as possible. Don't count on other people to control the dialogue. Get organized, get good viable candidates and go out and stump for them.

For reference, checkout www.godgunsconstitution.com. Find people with the same values you have, build an organization.

Best of luck.

Note: I've already written Hickenlooper to tell him if signs those bills, I take my tourism dollars elsewhere. Everyone here should be doing the same!
 
Alaska,

You obviously confuse convention (in this case, how legal and government documents were worded in the late 1700s) with belief. Studying some US history could benefit you, should you have mistaken idea that faith equals freedom. There is a specific reason for the separation of church and state- "church" has frequently been used to oppress and control, and the founding fathers did not want this.

This thread is a shining example of why progunners are frequently our own worst enemy. :rolleyes: We can't just talk about uniting to get anti-gunners out: no, we have to discuss drugs, political parties, and religion. :banghead: Are we really collectively this stupid? It's pretty simple. If a politician doesn't support RKBA, we fight them, regardless of their political party.

John
With all due respect JShirley, I so noted that in my comment about what was written by SOME but not all of the founders and I am well aware of the deist issues as well. On the other hand, there were many where their statements equaled their beliefs which is abundantly documented in the original documents.

Nevertheless, the entire constitution is a document protecting our "natural rights" which many of the founders believed were given from God.

http://billofrightsinstitute.org/re...dia/americapedia-constitution/natural-rights/

There is a philosophical reason why the Declaration of Independence states: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- "

The Federal constitution is open to the debate on deists and other such discussions. However, a simple perusal of the state constitutions and their history would show how influenced the early politics of America were of religion at the state level which did influence the debate at the Federal level as well. Our tainted view of history and the meaning of those documents is important in this discussion.

I believe what the Declaration states, that these rights come from our Creator. Saving our rights without Him I believe is doomed to failure. Just my own opinion and that is the basis for many of my statements.
 
I believe what the Declaration states, that these rights come from our Creator. Saving our rights without Him I believe is doomed to failure. Just my own opinion and that is the basis for many of my statements.
and here is where we run into problems. That wording is marvelously and deliberately imprecise. Does "creator" mean the Christian concept of god? Allah? Tao? Evolution? Your mother (or father depending on the scientific thought at the time)?

In the end it doesn't matter. The fact that you exist means you have some rights by virtue of your existence. Some of those are codified and specifically protected by the bill of rights.

When fighting for the protection of these rights, why on earth do you want to get divisive and start arguing against folks who personify their Creator differently then you do?

We are a pro-gun site. I can just about promise that, while my personal belief in Diety is off the chart, I personify him/her/it much differently than you do. And you know what? It doesn't matter. In the end we should all be on the same side, regardless of how we self-identify.
 
^

<standing ovation from me>

ETA: Personal letter sent to Hick, two responses sent on the web questionnaire cited above.

Repeating:

http://www.colorado.gov/govhdir/requests/opinion-leg.html

The full address for posting on other sites --just replace the initial "h" in http:

ttp://www.colorado.gov/govhdir/requests/opinion-leg.html

And reminding you to fill in all required fields. Screwed that up myself, at first.

Address for snail mail

---------------------
The Honorable John Hickenlooper
Governor of Colorado
Colorado State Capitol
200 East Colfax
Denver CO 80203

My dear Governor Hickenlooper,

---------------------------------------



Terry
 
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Even a cursory reading of Paine and Jefferson would disabuse you of this parochial notion. Further, the Deist god of Franklin and Washington has nothing in common with the "conservative right-wing christian" god. We need a big tent, just like the one that the founding fathers built.
I would greatly love to have the "big tent" that the founding father's built. Yes, you mentioned four involved at the Federal level that were from the "enlightenment" as they called it. If you do read their writings, you find that all of these men went out of their way to not offend the Christian majority that they represented.

However, you failed to mention James Madison, a devout Christian who also by the way wrote the original draft of the Bill of Rights that we are talking about today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison#Father_of_the_Bill_of_Rights

Sadly, the big tent we started with has been replaced by an illiterate electorate that seeks special interests instead of individual liberties. Not sure what kind of big tent you can make with that kind of electorate.

In any case, just my opinion.

Have a great day.
 
and here is where we run into problems. That wording is marvelously and deliberately imprecise. Does "creator" mean the Christian concept of god? Allah? Tao? Evolution? Your mother (or father depending on the scientific thought at the time)?

In the end it doesn't matter. The fact that you exist means you have some rights by virtue of your existence. Some of those are codified and specifically protected by the bill of rights.

When fighting for the protection of these rights, why on earth do you want to get divisive and start arguing against folks who personify their Creator differently then you do?

We are a pro-gun site. I can just about promise that, while my personal belief in Diety is off the chart, I personify him/her/it much differently than you do. And you know what? It doesn't matter. In the end we should all be on the same side, regardless of how we self-identify.
Dear Derek, to pretend that this nation is not divided on philosophical, political, cultural and religious ideologies is to mistate the problem of protecting our "God given" rights.

To state my own opinion is not divisive my friend it is simply stating an opinion.

Lastly, are we going to dismiss the nature of the polticial makeup of the current Supreme Court? Sorry, but all Obama has to do is replace one of the elderly, very elderly in a couple cases, conservative justices with a "choice" along his ideology and the recent 5-4 decisions goes against us. The likelihood that the character of SCOTUS will change dramatically in the next 4 years is much greater than the likelihood of keeping it the same. All bets are off for constitutional protections should the likely occur.

That is not my opinion, that is what many political pundents state. To pretend otherwise is in my opinion unwise.

In any case,

Have a great day.
 
How did "we need to fight anti-gun politicians" turn into a discussion of your religious ideas and the Supreme Court? :confused:

"Stating your opinion" could well be divisive, and half a second's thought would prove that.

Again: the focus here is on protecting our firearms rights, not which imaginary friend you favor, or how you play with them.

John
 
If you do read their writings, you find that all of these men went out of their way to not offend the Christian majority that they represented.
Paine and Jefferson? Surely you jest. Especially about Paine, Age of Reason is one of the most vitriolic anti-religion tracts I've ever read and it was published 200 YEARS AGO.

Listen, I consider you a brother in arms literally and figuratively, despite your religious beliefs. Extending the same courtesy will only create more brothers in arms. This is not a difficult concept.
 
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Alaska444 natural rights do not ave anything to do with religion. You sight a BLOG as a source!?!

Natural rights - are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable.
 
Alaska444 natural rights do not ave anything to do with religion. You sight a BLOG as a source!?!

Natural rights - are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable.

Ummm...perhaps the natural rights our founders believed in were not part of a specific doctrinal faith tradition but they sure did refer to and revere the Creator.
 
Ummm...perhaps the natural rights our founders believed in were not part of a specific doctrinal faith tradition but they sure did refer to and revere the Creator.
Hmmm, I wonder who that Creator was in 1776 that they mentioned over and over again.

In any case, America is a divided nation. There was a time where folks were revered for speaking their mind and laying it out. So be it, that is not the way it is today, but shucks, I ain't in any hurry to catch up to today's new morality.
 
"Although I'm still a Muslim, I'm not here tonight to discuss my religion. I'm not here to try and change your religion. I'm not here to argue or discuss anything that we differ about, because it's time for us to submerge our differences and realize that it is best for us to first see that we have the same problem, a common problem, a problem that will make you catch hell whether you're a Baptist, or a Methodist, or a Muslim, or a nationalist. Whether you're educated or illiterate, whether you live on the boulevard or in the alley, you're going to catch hell just like I am. We're all in the same boat and we all are going to catch the same hell from the same man."
-Malcolm X
 
I'm disappointed.

This is precisely the reason we are in such a pickle. The leftists seem to be united in a single cause, we are diverse and hence divided.

Let's discard the petty differences on ancillary matters and center on the one thing where we should be presenting a solid front.
 
Yep.

Let's start another thread, and keep everything but defeating anti-gunners out of it.

Some of us are our own worst enemy. I'd rather an open and honest opponent than fratricidal "friends". :(
 
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