Colorado Magazine Ban going to State Supreme Court

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bbqreloader, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. bbqreloader
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    bbqreloader Contributing Member

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  2. Styx

    Styx Member

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    They'll uphold it, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
     
  3. Koroner

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    I lived in Colorado for half of the '70s, a much different place than it is now.

    A state of contradictions; 80% of the people live east of the continental divide and they get 80% of their water from west of the divide.
    The westerners are still solid Red, but the easterners are a burgeoning bunch of aging hippies and other liberal (anti-gun) types that hold sway in the legislature. The knee jerk reaction to the shooting in the movie theater was to go after hi-cap mags. Thing is they grandfathered the existing ones, but mags don't come with a date of manufacture.

    Just imagine the bootlegger trade smuggling out weed and trading in part for hi-caps for the trip back in. I know the former is happening.

    Its a mess. A certain western Colorado Sheriff not to be named has stated he won't attempt to enforce "idiotic restrictions".
     
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  4. X-Rap

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    A lot of Mags come with a "born on date" but I've yet to hear of anyone being prosecuted under the new law. but it's hanging out there so they can tack it onto other charges.
     
  5. Styx

    Styx Member

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    Out of curiosity, what mags are you referring to?
     
  6. Styx

    Styx Member

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    It's not an idiotic restriction. It's just the first set in an incremental outright ban... If they banned it outright, they'd get a bunch a push back. If they ban new sales, wait several years until another shooting occurs, by that time the general public will be more receptive to an outright ban.
     
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  7. Koroner

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    I was quoting a sheriff, but I have two ex-LEO friends who are solidly behind the second amendment. One is a former California Highway Patrolman (he says Sammy Hagar truly can't drive 55, cited him for 105, but said he was very polite and friendly) and he still lives there (so as an ex-LEO he still keeps some toys from the old days).

    But I can't imagine living under such a restrictive legal climate (I live in Iron County where the men are men and the sheep are scared).

    Still, the point you make about eroding the second amendment is more than valid; it is the stuff of nightmares.
     
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  8. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    Recent military contract mags have month and year.
    I'm pretty sure my PMags have dates as well.
     
  9. walnut1704

    walnut1704 Member

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    I'm not there anymore, but I can tell you from personal experience that the magazine restriction is completely ignored on the Western Slope.
     
  10. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    It's not an East vs. West thing; it's the I-25 corridor vs. the rest of the state. There are a couple pockets of liberalism elsewhere, but the population center from Ft. Collins to Pueblo is where the lefties are. Unfortunately, they outnumber everyone on the Western slope, the Eastern plains and in Southern Colorado combined. The Denver metro area is home to 2.93 million bodies, while the entire state population is 5.7M

    It's completely ignored everywhere. Magazines that violate the restriction are openly sold in stores and at gun shows, no attempts to even feign compliance.
     
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  11. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Actually, most magazines do not come with manufacture dates.

    And things became complicated in California when magazine wear/damage/parts replacement issue came into effect.

    You see, thing is magazines are "consumable" as parts wear. So as gun owners replace recoil springs and other "consumable" parts of guns due to wear, so do parts on magazines like springs, mag followers get replaced due to wear, to include magazine bodies.

    It is only expected to replace worn springs and worn mag followers of legally obtained/purchased magazines. But how about worn/damaged magazine bodies that need to be replaced?

    And for many reasons, judge Benitez overturned the CA ban on larger than 10 round capacity magazines. And while we wait on 9th Circuit appeal, thanks to continued Trump judge appointments, federal courts are increasingly becoming more and more conservative/pro gun.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
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  12. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Unless SCOTUS takes cases (let's say some circuits wipe out state bans - fat chance), lower court decisions while exciting or dissents at the lower court level are nothing to get excited about.

    Local wins do not mean you win the war. We have to wait on SCOTUS. What they do on the NYC case will be indicative. The rejection of the Remington case (despite the legal arguments it was ok and even a good thing) isn't time for the happy dance. Here's a take that is realistic on the issue:

    https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/11/19/no-supreme-court-didnt-just-bankrupt-gun-industry.aspx

    We've already discussed in depth why Sheriff Andy's proclamation in Happyberry is just feel good and means nothing if state authorities decide to move along with the personal risks involved. Are sanctuaries a good PR move outside the choir to convince folks to support gun rights? That's an empirical question. If it's just PR for the choir, it's not going to influence the struggle in a major fashion.

    The law is ignored, some say. Well, in TX - twice a month in my area we held carbine matches. About 65 folks would attend using carbines that would be banned with draconian laws. Participants included state, local and Federal law enforcement (some of whom were very good friends and supportive totally of the RKBA). Do they sit still with massive violations of the law? An anti gunner could attend the match and do a social media, mainstream media, report to the state level of the law breaking. Do you trust that the state troopers don't show at another match. Sheriff Andy going to shoot it out? No, the guns change at the match and the modern sporting rifle goes into the basement with your horde. Useless.

    Then your EX turns you in. Revenge AWB reports become the revenger porn of the gun world. Yes, don't worry the courts will save us. Like the bump stocks (not that they were worth crap, but that's not the point).
     
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  13. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    By the time these cases make to SCOTUS, if Ginsburg gets replaced, what's your take on how the SCOTUS may rule on future gun rights cases?

    Do we need another justice to ensure ruling in favor of 2A?
     
  14. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    I think we're all foolishly holding out hope on the Supreme Court being some sort of savior with this NY case. I mean, let's say it's a win and strict scrutiny gets applied to all gun laws/cases from here on... why are we supposed to expect district court judges and appellate court judges to abide by the SCOTUS ruling? What's the punishment if they don't? A stern letter of disappointment?

    Okay, I know the punishment is supposed to be impeachment and removal, but do we really expect the US Congress, one half of which is currently run by the anti-gun party, to do that?
     
  15. ATLDave

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    No, that has never been the "supposed" or real remedy for judges not getting cases right. Continual reversal and judicial embarrasment is the remedy.

    This happens frequently in various areas of the law. You get lower courts that are hostile to some theory/statute/right embraced by the Court and rulings that cannot easily be squared with Supreme Court precedent. The Supreme Court then has to decide whether to "police" that area of law - when it does, lower courts eventually get the message. Any practicing litigator can give you examples in their area of the law where they've seen this happen. I've lived it (professionally) a couple of times.

    Federal judges are generally the people who got a lot of A's in school - especially at the circuit court level. They value being "right" a lot. Their prestige in the federal bar and court system is closely tied up with being "right." Even the most stubborn ones will eventually start writing opinions applying Supreme Court precedent if they know the Supreme Court is going to reverse them. Their opinions may criticize or question the reasoning of the precedent, trying to get a 5th vote to flip at some point, but they eventually fall into line on the actual rulings.

    But only IF if the Supreme Court actually reverses contrary decisions. Lower courts ignoring the first big ruling out of the Supreme Court is not unusual. What has been unusual is the Supreme Court's refusal to take up even the most blatant refusals to take Heller and McDonald seriously.
     
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  16. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    That's because the supposed pro gun justices don't trust Roberts and/or they don't want to give an opinion that isn't wishy-washy and voids most gun laws such as weapons and carry restrictions. Scalia had some restrictions that he agreed with.

    Some might not want modern sporting rifles (haha) to be freely available or constitutional carry/easy shall issue,
     
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  17. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    And I like the fact that judge Benitez along with the district court in Fyock v Sunnyvale called ammunition storage devices like magazines "arms" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/nj-magazine-backfires-as-not-a-single-one-has-been-turned-in.856293/page-2#post-11234266

    "The district court in [Fyock v. Sunnyvale], found that 'magazines having a capacity to accept more than ten rounds are in common use, and are therefore not dangerous and unusual.' ... The district court found that the large capacity magazines qualify as 'arms' for purposes of the Second Amendment."
     
  18. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Unless there is a nation wide decision by SCOTUS or a legislative annulment of state bans across the country, you can like it but so what? The bans will increase and become precedent across the country. It will part of a cultural change that such are bad. The owners will be seen as delusional as smokers are now.
     
  19. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    So if growing number of federal district and circuit courts start ruling in favor of gun rights/2A, that won't matter?

    I certainly hope it will.
     
  20. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Waiting for growing number. Anomalies don't count. Make a list of the successful overturning of state bans that have held versus the state laws that are in force.
     
  21. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Fair enough. Will return to discussion when something actual takes place.
     
  22. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    It seems to me that rights, once lost, are very hard to regain. To be clear I'm not talking about the general expansion of rights such as blacks and women being given the vote for the first time or gays being allowed to marry after longstanding repression; I'm talking about rights once enjoyed and lost, and regained again. I can think of prohibition but that's one of the rare times I can think of where it has occurred.
     
  23. BCR#1

    BCR#1 member

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    When did drinking alcohol become a right?

    Bill
     
  24. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    You might say that it was in 1933 with repeal of Prohibition. But we had "dry" counties and cities for a long time after, so who knows if it can be considered a right. Maybe it is like guns.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  25. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    I guess I can't answer that without it getting weird. My answer was deleted and the reason give was:
    Undocumented and unverifiable fairytales aren't useful or welcome.

    I guess you'll have to do your own research into the origins of the BOR.
     
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