Combat Shotguns: Dying?

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I'm another one of those guys that moved away from maintaining a shotgun to an AR for HD. My M1S90 and 1897 now serve as a back-ups and for muskrat/beaver eradication on my 9 acre pond.

Biggest reason for me were the ability of my 13 year old and wife to use the AR in my absence, both can easily handle my LE6920. I also found the ARs actually easier to train with as there are more carbine classes offered than I've found shotgun courses in my area. I've taken 2 combat shotgun classes, and probably 6 carbine, or carbine combined with pistol classes. That combined with 23 years in the Army, and it's just the system I'm better trained on. I've set up a couple AR "trainers" similar to my HD AR:

Colt 6591 in 9mm:
DSC01070_zpsxuzvbd9f.jpg

M&P15-22:
DSC00644_zps7735f390.jpg

The "real" thing:
DSC01010_zpsbcaowxt9.jpg

I can easily get my wife and son to run plate drills with either the 9mm or .22LR, they find it fun, and don't even realize they're training. Trying to get her to practice with the 12GA was like pulling teeth. With the AR I also don't have to worry about teaching her how to do slug selection drills, and reload drills don't quite get the same emphasis with 31 rounds on tap compared to 8.

Neither the 9mm or .22LR tear up my AR500 tgts at CQB distances so I find myself working with my carbines way more often than I ever did with my shotguns.

Chuck
 
My primary home defense long gun is not tacticool or sexy at all, but it will get the job done.
Staring down a double barrel is intimidating too don't you think? ;-)

This reminds me too much of one of my late uncle's "proverbs..." - The speed of conversion of a violent man to a reasonable man is directly proportional to the size of the hole in the end of the barrel.
 
Some good info here and of course the usual amount of opinion from the clueless.

The shotgun is not dead with those who understand. It is dying with the Tact-fool crowd and the Tacti-cool Delta Farce Elite Ninja bunch. And of course with the Girly Men that Arnold warned us about.

As for me. A weapon that was so deadly and destructive when deployed in the trenches of WW I that it was banned for use in future wars, is the gun I want in my hands when someone is trying to kill me in close quarters. There is little to no risk of me facing a threat at yardage, but if it was to come about I have my trusty M1A and not some varmint gun to deal with that threat.
 
The shotgun was never banned in warfare...the Germans did protest (unsuccessfully) against its use in WW1.
 
The statement that the only reason LE used shotguns is that they were cheaper may be one man's opinion - but it's not based in real world experience

It is in fact the cold, unadorned truth. Shotguns can be plenty effective at close range, without a doubt, but their popularity for many years was due to their being common and cheap. They offer no inherent advantage except for those who shoot shotguns so much that using one is second nature, except for those who may need to also launch special loads like bean-bag rounds or rubber buckshot. Personally, I'm just not tactical enough to own any BB rounds or rubber buckshot.
 
The shotgun is not dead with those who understand. It is dying with the Tact-fool crowd and the Tacti-cool Delta Farce Elite Ninja bunch. And of course with the Girly Men that Arnold warned us about.

As for me. A weapon that was so deadly and destructive when deployed in the trenches of WW I that it was banned for use in future wars, is the gun I want in my hands when someone is trying to kill me in close quarters. There is little to no risk of me facing a threat at yardage, but if it was to come about I have my trusty M1A and not some varmint gun to deal with that threat.

Okay, so to be sure I understand your "point", you denigrate those who want to use AR-15-style rifles because the M16 platform's history as the longest-serving general issue combat rifle, yet say you're going to use a shotgun because the Germans protested their use? :rolleyes: Then talk about how you want to use your rifle based on the least successful US general-issue rifle ever, should you ever go to war? (Incidentally, the shotgun hasn't been "banned" in wars by any means, shotguns just aren't very useful for much in genuine combat.)

Well, I guess that clear lots of stuff up, then, thanks. :D

PS: you also get bonus points for needless insulting based on gender, in addition to the absolute lack of logic, appeal to some mythical higher knowledge, and reliance on internet myths, so, kudos. Way to keep it smart and classy. :barf:

John
 
PS: you also get bonus points for needless insulting based on gender, in addition to the absolute lack of logic, appeal to some mythical higher knowledge, and reliance on internet myths, so, kudos. Way to keep it smart and classy. :barf:



John

Well how else can you defend your choices? Saying you prefer a shotgun simply won't do. Name calling is a key point in any well-structured discussion.




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J.D. of AI&P is a good ol' boy. He's also a Viet Nam veteran. He's "old school", so, please; cut him some slack. Think of him as the Trump of Shotguns: knowledgeable on the subject but perhaps a little politically incorrect. He was only posting his opinion here as we all have the freedom to do. If he has violated any forum guidelines, then, please, take it to P.M.

He is a valuable resource to shotgunners and should he take exception to being singled out in not one but two posts from a forum moderator, then dogpiled on by another forum user and leave us, it would be to our disadvantage.
 
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J.D. of AI&P is a good ol' boy. He's also a Viet Nam veteran. He's "old school", so, please; cut him some slack. Think of him as the Trump of Shotguns: knowledgeable on the subject but perhaps a little politically incorrect. He was only posting his opinion here as we all have the freedom to do. If he has violated any forum guidelines, then, please, take it to P.M.

He is a valuable resource to shotgunners and should he take exception to being singled out in not one but two posts from a forum moderator, then dogpiled on by another forum user and leave us, it would be to our disadvantage.

I'm thinking we might have a difference of opinion concerning the definition of "politically correct" VS down right insulting.

This is an opinion on shotgun VS carbine?

The shotgun is not dead with those who understand. It is dying with the Tact-fool crowd and the Tacti-cool Delta Farce Elite Ninja bunch. And of course with the Girly Men that Arnold warned us about.

Somehow I always associated "old school" with manners.

Chuck
 
And maybe too many people exagerate this whole "high road" thing into being thin-skinned, weak-kneed little sisters. :neener:
I didn't even give AI&P's comments a 2nd glance. Sure, they were maybe a little colorful, but deserving of all this whining? No, not hardly.
Now how 'bout everybody puts their big-boy pants back on, gets over it, and moves along?
 
You're right, probably just another case of some old guy posting when his meds are a little out of whack.....

I should have just considered the source.

Chuck
 
And maybe too many people exagerate this whole "high road" thing into being thin-skinned, weak-kneed little sisters. :neener:
I didn't even give AI&P's comments a 2nd glance. Sure, they were maybe a little colorful, but deserving of all this whining? No, not hardly.
Now how 'bout everybody puts their big-boy pants back on, gets over it, and moves along?
absolutely agree ,
 
And maybe too many people exagerate this whole "high road" thing into being thin-skinned, weak-kneed little sisters.
I didn't even give AI&P's comments a 2nd glance. Sure, they were maybe a little colorful, but deserving of all this whining? No, not hardly.
Now how 'bout everybody puts their big-boy pants back on, gets over it, and moves along?

Thing is, the discussion isn't about who can handle the most salt without crying. It is (was) about the shotgun's viability compared to other options. Denigrating people who have reasons to use something other than yourself isn't "colorful", it's an unhelpful distraction at best, and outright rude if nothing else.

And to 200Apple's point, if JD takes exception to being called out, he may leave... Sure, and so might any new shooters without the training to handle shotgun recoil, or women who don't care for being automatically equated to the lowest rung of capability.

I'd throw out some legitimate reasons why shotguns aren't always better than carbines, but this thread is likely to get the lock anyway... And even if it doesn't, it's apparent that minds are made up.
 
Simply, modern carbines are very effective at close range, easy to learn to use well, don't tend to overpenetrate in structures even as much as pistol calibers, are more versatile regarding range to target, are much easier to use to address multiple targets, and demonstrably are the first choice of the people the US sends to go kill bad people.

Shotguns are inexpensive, can hit hard at close range, and many people feel you don't need to aim. Unless I'm facing a dedicated hit squad, the truth is, almost any firearm will be enough for me to successfully defend my home...but the modern carbine has numerous advantages over the shotgun for home defense.

John
 
Actually depending on how they racked their guns in the cars, only crumbs would indicate a very well maintained shotgun. Vertical mount shotguns, could turn into tiny waste baskets if you had slob driving the car. Dead pens, pieces of gum, pieces of paper, you name it. About the only thing I have seen come out the barrel if a live animal of some sort. I loved not having to share my car with any slobs, and it could be down right disgusting to check the shotgun on occasion.

-Jenrick
 
Madam, I am certain my last post exactly addressed the OP.

Indeed it did sir, while you make strong points on the carbine... I am seeing myself in the uncomfortable position of being at the top of the stairs with an unwanted intruder on the ground floor. Now I am quite capable of using my carbine, when cool and detached, effectively and accurately. In the situation I am imagining I am anything but. In that vision I see a number of benefits to my little semi automatic 20. For one the very real possibility that said intruder will question the wisdom of being in the stairway when he finds himself peppered with shot. I can also imagine the louder report of the shotgun strengthening that doubt. Add to what I see the advantage the closer the intruder gets to the firing line the more effective the shot will be due to patterning and velocity.

If I were chasing someone down the lane my carbine would be my first choice. However, I have the attitude once they are out of the house there is time to wait for the sheriff's office to get there so I have no reason to chase them anywhere but out of the stairway.
 
Yes, the shotgun was banned. One should learn History before commenting on it. It was restricted to the guarding of prisoners and was not used in the European Theater during WWII. The Marines used it in the Pacific Theater because Japan never signed any accords. It was used in Viet Nam because that was an Insurrection by the Viet Gong and the North Vietnamese who gave them assistance also never signed the accords. It is also being used by the US Military Special Forces units and their Armorers sit in the same classes at the factory I attend every three years.

Shotguns are prohibited for use in Law Enforcement in most all European countries. However, they are making a come back there on some Counter Terrorism Teams. They are still considered to destructive to use by most European Law Enforcement.

Also, I am not a Viet Nam Vet and have never claimed to be as I never left CONUS during my time in the Corps.

I state from experience and of course fact that a 12ga shotgun has more initial firepower then a SMG or an AR-15. So, as I always say. "If you're going to a gun fight, take a shotgun". If you can't take a shotgun, don't go.
 
I've said this before, but the more I shot my AR's in competition the further back in the safe my shotgun has moved.

A fully loaded 870 with a 7 or 8 shot mag is front heavy, kicks hard and requires both hands to use effectively.

A lightweight AR style semi-auto carbine can be operated with one hand while the other is opening a door, dialing a phone. With 20 rounds or more it can still weigh less than a shotgun.

I still love my shotgun, I relied on it for years but it's no longer my go to HD gun.

I imagine I'll shoot some doves with it Sept 1st.
 
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