Quantcast

Combat Shotguns: Dying?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Panzerschwein, Jul 4, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Sebastian the Ibis
    • Contributing Member

    Sebastian the Ibis Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,008
    Location:
    "The Gunshine State"
    This thread inspired me to spend the weekend with my 870, who has been feeling a little left out recently.

    Regrettably, it wasn’t great, so she will be going to the way back of the safe.
    On Saturday, I took my 870 around my house, and it made me realize that I have bunch of half-walls and corners, in between my bedroom and where I would like to be if something goes bump in the night. As such, in any sort of unlikely situation where I would need it, there is a good chance I’d be holding the 870 at the muzzle (as opposed to the slide). So today at the range, I practiced shooting that way. I couldn’t hit a dang thing. Also, found that if I don’t hold the slide, the slide will go back, and I’ll likely wind up having to eject a good shell to clear everything up (and it will take another critical second).

    I think I’ll stick to an SBR for now.
     
  2. ATN082268

    ATN082268 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    101
    Round for round...

    O.K. so shotguns are popular for close range engagements.

    O.K. so shotguns can be cheaper than a lot of other long gun alternatives, like AR-15s, but why not just get a handgun which can be even cheaper?

    Close range engagements, like those inside a house, will probably be within about 10 yards. Ammunition like 12 Gauge Federal 2.75 inch low recoil 00 Buckshot with flitecontrol can easily put a shot on target at that range with the hit looking like a single slug round. Round for round, for situations like home defense, I'll stack up a single 12 Gauge shell against almost any other round...
     
  3. stoky

    stoky Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,733
    Location:
    Wyomin!
    +1, except for the almost
    If we're talking professional combat, I guess we have to acknowledge the realities of modern recruiting and eschew recoil and/or weight. Let us also not bring up the antiquated concept of the butt stroke. :p
    Anyone who has ever tried three gun knows that SG ammo management is problematic.
     
  4. goon

    goon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,250
    I know that volume purchases give the military and LE a much better deal than a civilian can get, but I've seen many decent used Mossberg 12 gauges that are either set up for close range HD or quickly could be in the $140 - $200 range. It's rare that I've run into a good handgun in that range, except maybe a Makarov. In the civilian world, the shotgun just simply wins on price.
     
  5. ATN082268

    ATN082268 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    101
    I stand corrected :)
     
  6. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,780
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    So, so true. :p

    I was in Supply, and actually the only problem I had with ammo orders was gosh darn, I always ended up with more rounds than needed for the range, and turning live rounds in was way more paperwork than turning in empty brass in the cans, so gosh darn, SOMEONE had to shoot them up.....:evil:
     
  7. BSA1

    BSA1 member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    7,492
    Location:
    West of the Big Muddy, East of the Rockies and Nor
    From what I have read and seen on TV short barrel shotguns loaded with slugs or 00 are commonly carried for self-defense against bears by the natives (eskimos). Children that are old enough to handle a shotgun carry them when away from the town such as when going fishing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhZf_x8Esms

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GqZaVQW7O4

    So a ¾” hole in their attackers arm isn’t enough to cause them to stop their attack? Flesh, muscle, tendons and bone being shattered along with massive bleeding and shock rendering the arm instantly totally useless?

    Is deeper penetration really needed for this type wound? If so follow up shots are no different than with a AR, AK, handgun or ABC.

    Body armor is finding it’s way into use by criminals. However body armor typically only covers the torso and groin. Arms especially and legs are usually unprotected for mobility which are easier to hit with a shotgun than a small caliber bullet.

    This is just your personal opinion. The same thing is frequently said about revolvers yet manufacturers keep increasing production. Those revolvers are going somewhere.

    You are using two tools designed for different purposes for the same situation. Close quarters combat. You prefer a .224” bullet precisely placed whereas I prefer a minimum of a ¾” entrance hole in my target.

    Wrong. You must have missed the video where the attacker was hiding between one column and the officer behind another one. Officer was looking around one side of the column while the attacker ran up behind his blind side on the other side of the column and shot him four times at point blank range.

    There is not any information made public yet if shotgun(s) were used and if so how.

    We do know the attacker was finally killed by a robot using a bomb so until then the most likely use firearms was suppressive.

    Shotguns are a effective practical choice in anti-gun states. I have relatives living in Maryland. While handguns are very regulated and restricted shotguns do not appear to be. In parts of Baltimore the homes are built close together. If we accept that every round we fire has legal consequences then in such neighborhoods rounds that lose their power quickly is more desirable than a .223 that still has killing power 300 yards away.

    Only time will tell what firearms become more popular in California. Semi-automatic handguns have already being successfully restricted by the complicated testing procedure and cost to get a handgun on the approved roster. Revolvers are readily available for purchase for self-defense and recreational shooting.

    Of course it is too early to know what impact the new laws will have on sale and possession of AR's. This law is sure to be challenged in Court. However if it stands it could well reduce the desirably of the AR.
     
  8. kell490

    kell490 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    58
    I would think clearing homes and buildings would be a good use of semi-auto shotgun with double 00 shells. Police used pump shotguns for years worked well for them until criminals started using Rifles at longer ranges perfect to counter handguns.
     
  9. goon

    goon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,250
    Unless it's true AP ammunition, most 5.56 ammo is less likely to overpenetrate than a 00 buck pellet. Even a round of M193 FMJ is likely to yaw to the side and fragment at the crimp cannelure after about 5" of penetration. In the case of a miss, large shot pellets also may penetrate much more than you think. And with a 5.56 you'd have one stray round at a time, but with an shotgun you'd have 8 to 15 strays with each having the wounding potential of a .32 or .380 ACP round.

    Not saying a shotgun isn't useful or a solid choice, just that it has as many potential drawbacks as anything else.
     
  10. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,648
    I hope you will post your results. We can always use more data points. #4 buck seems to me a sensible minimum, though perhaps a case could be made for the smaller lead F or T. The market has not demanded those. So far as I know they are handload-only propositions at present, which is a good sign that people's experience, driving market demand, has placed the floor at #4 buck as the smallest buckshot that is satisfactory.
     
  11. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,648
    For me, there is doubtless some mental inertia going on here. Years ago I settled on the riot 12 gauge as the best defense gun based on my perception of the less unlikely scenarios: no helicopter zombie assaults, but perhaps a post-midnight door kick-in or something.

    I have never seriously revisited my decision. I see no reason. I will admit that a modern sporting rifle with a red dot sight is outstanding, once you figure out the fastest way to use the sight. (Both eyes downrange; let the sight add an aiming pip to your normal view of things. Works for me, anyhow.) But the rifle's advantages are not compelling until you factor in its better performance at a distance, and long distance scenarios are of very low likelihood.

    Switching over to the MSR would discard years of practice and habitually thinking in terms of the shotgun and its use--the shotgun's second nature by now. So, good as the rifle is, I'm still 'stuck on shotgun.' :D
     
  12. BSA1

    BSA1 member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    7,492
    Location:
    West of the Big Muddy, East of the Rockies and Nor
    Have you looked at the youtube videos?

    This one is interesting;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOIQgfvVlE

    That isn’t very deep.

    Apples to oranges. With a cylinder bore the shot spread is going to get larger with distance.

    However when it comes to the lethal range of 12 ga. vs. .223 the .223 wins hands down. Shotgun pellets lose their velocity fairly rapidly so after 50 yards or so they are unlikely to be lethal (always allow for the exception) whereas the .223 is lethal to 300+ yards.
     
  13. two gun charlie

    two gun charlie Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    293
    Location:
    Republic of South Africa
    for obvious reasons I still prefer my shotgun after dark and when I expect to be facing multiple assailants at short distances , living in a country where rioting seems to be the favorite pastime of a certain segment of the population it's still very much the weapon of choice for me personally
     
  14. Jason_W

    Jason_W Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,195
    Location:
    Valley of Stucco and Sadness, CA
    I've wondered at times why discussions of defensive shotgun payload have centered around either small birdshot ( #8-#4) or size #4-00 buck, while completely ignoring intermediate size shot.

    A few years ago I was playing around with some informal gel testing and found that Size BB and T factory loads easily cleared 12" of gel. My size F (.22 dia.) handloads penetrated even further.

    Seems like an under explored class of shot.
     
  15. John Joseph

    John Joseph Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Messages:
    1,072
    I think it comes down to horses for courses. A Clydesdale isn't going to win any races, nor a Thoroughbred pull a beer wagon.

    My personal view is that aftermarket tactical enhancements are seldom desirable. Money is more often than not better spent on ammo, training and range time.

    In HD situations, short barrels are less clumsy to maneuver with within a dwelling and the shortest barrel is going to be on a handgun.
     
  16. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    21,976
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Really? One of several reasons I have gone to 100% slug for defensive shotgun use (though a carbine is of course preferable) is my own, real-world experience, and witnessing others' experience shooting live creatures with shot, sometimes with miserable results. Our own Al Thompson, for instance, got very little penetration when shooting a hog with #4 buckshot at the distances you're describing. I have had a "failure to stop" on a squirrel with 00 buckshot. I had a friend who suffered a negligent discharge of birdshot to his abdomen from a few feet away as a child. Unless you're talking about 00 buck at almost contact distance, shot is absolutely not a reliable stopper.

    Which means/proves absolutely nothing. Thousands of deer have been killed with .22LR, too, which doesn't make it a good choice. There has been at least one instance of a big bear in Alaska being shot with a .22 (defensive shooting, not hunting). Does that mean you should choose a .22LR for bear defense?

    Actually, the original post questioned why the SG was losing popularity vs. the modern carbine, so the topic clearly includes both.

    Which has nothing to do with anything. I'd rather face "some inexperienced nimrod" holding an automatic weapon than Jerry Miculek armed with a .22 revolver, but that is really just a massive red herring, so thanks for that. I have supported genuine armed professionals, for whom kicking in doors was part of the job, and with the option of using pretty much anything they wanted, they used short M4s and saved the Serbu for breaching. Yeah, we also had shotguns for the HMMVWs (this was early 2007), but that was more of a riot control measure (we also had a big crew served, either a grenade launcher or M2, as well as a short-barreled M249 in case the action got too close or the main crew-served went down, in addition to our own personal M4s).

    Quality handguns have rarely been cheaper than many common slide-action shotguns, and if using a weapon defensively, a longarm should always be chosen if possible, due to greater control, accuracy and power Additionally, high velocity, lightly constructed bullets fired at high velocity are much more likely to cause effective damage while having less risk of overpenetration than any handgun rounds.

    You can't have it both ways. If you accept that every round you fire has legal consequences, then you accept that you have much less control over individual shot than you would a much more accurate single rifle bullet, and you also accept that your chances of injuring a bystander outside your home from a miss inside your home is higher with 00 buckshot than almost any .223 projectile.

    This is the only truly excellent reason for using the SG instead of the carbine, other than expense. Again, though, the major divide is not between shotgun and carbine, or even one of those vs. handgun, but between armed and unarmed. A SSS would be far down my list of preferred HD arms, but in probably 90%+ of home invasions, I'm pretty sure I'd make do. :) (But I'd really prefer to be using full-power Foster slugs. Less chance of overpenetrating a threat, very good chance of stopping that threat. As an aside, any of you who believe any shot other than to the CNS is going to instantly stop a threat need to shoot more living things. Now deceased buddy Byron had a friend who was shot with a 20 gauge slug to the chest. He was conscious and talking for several minutes, more than enough time to still have been a deadly threat if he'd been an aggressor with a firearm. I've seen a buck jump up and run over 30 minutes after taking a .35 bullet through the chest, though the lights went out when I put a .40 XTP behind his ear.)
     
  17. ATN082268

    ATN082268 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    101
    I conceded in an earlier post in this thread that you might be able to get a used shotgun cheaper than a used handgun (all else being equal). Really though, my point was the one you made in your above post.
     
  18. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    21,976
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Yeah, in the end, the big difference is having a gun, or not.

    At least half the firearms I own would be fine choices for HD, with the Circuit Judge being about the only major exception (considering I've felt powder on my cheek with just .22LR rounds. I absolutely believe firing it without eye pro on would be hazardous).
     
  19. xxjumbojimboxx

    xxjumbojimboxx Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,342
    Location:
    Southern Colorado
    War application

    I don't think its fair to say that because we don't use shotguns much in war that their not applicable for defense. 100 shotgun shells take up way more space than 100 5.56's and weight considerably more. That's probably the reason they aren't used much in war. Extra stuff to hump. Also when every soldier around you is using an M-16 and you, the shot gunner, runs out of ammo, there's no one around to throw you a new box of slugs. Just my .02.
     
  20. ZVP

    ZVP Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    937
    Not dying,just finding new homes

    Yes 3 gun has given AR owners a new place to use their baby's hut not to replace the scattergun,rather by showing specific uses for all 3 types and how each crosses over into the others territory
    I own 2 very different types of shotguns, a chopped, specialized modded 12 ga Westernfield (Mossberg 500 customer gun) and a beautiful 20 Ga side by side 28" barreled upland Brazilian made multi-purpose shotgun
    The 12 was first one bought with all intentions of modding it for HD with it's30" bbl shortened to 19", fitted with a slip on recoil pad and slip-on shell carrier when needed. No sling or lights a brass dot will be fitted soon.firing 00-Buck it spreads to around 7" @ 15 yds. Max distance inside. My house.
    The 20 ga gets number 4 Buck loads for HD and shoots all other flavor of loads just right! Being in a wheelchair, fine lighter weight Double handles the easiest. Frankly an AR would handle well also but I prefer the knock down properties of a Shotgun loaded with Buck.for me personally, buying an AR isn' gonna happen I can buy another used shotgun $250 Orr less. there will always be a place for the shotgun for HD
    Dave
     
  21. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    2,036
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I disagree with the "much more accurate" rifle bullet statement. Does a rifle have a great ability to be accurate/precise (I'll avoid that semantic argument) at distance then a shot shell, absolutely. However the implication in your statement is that the rifle is capable of being more accurate then the shotgun is in all instances. At about 7 yds high quality modern buckshot loadings will produce a bore sized hole as the pattern, meaning they are just as "accurate" as a rifle at those distances and in. Additionally far from the weapon system involved, or the ammunition used being the determinative factor of accuracy in almost ALL SD/HD/LE/MIL shootings, it's the person pulling the trigger.

    Secondly, a 5.56 rounds has a much higher danger space. 00 buck has approximately a ballistic coefficient of about ~.046, where as 5.56 round usually at worst is in the mid .2's (higher is better). Assuming a 50 yd zero (just to make a fair comparison with a rifle) and a 50 yard shot, the pellets will have fallen approximately 6' and come back to earth at 200 yds, where as a 5.56 round will come back to earth at about 470 yards. An almost 300 yd area of extra danger. Larger caliber rounds with higher BC's just make the problem worse.

    Regardless, as shown in the video above, either projectile is going to punch through quiet a few walls before coming to rest. In common US homes, both projectiles are exiting. In common US homes the pattern is going to be a bore sized hole, just like with a rifle.
     
  22. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    5,590
    Location:
    Fl panhandle
    For the most part, I don't have much use for a shotgun unless I'm hunting birds or rabbits. When I was in the military, we had shotguns of different types- pumps like 870s and 590s and Benneli autos. We primarilly used very short pistol gripped 870s for door breaching with specialized rounds. In this instance, they were less of a "weapon" and more of a "tool", even though they were obviously considered weapons for safety issues as well as secure storage requirements, etc. The autos were longer, and had stocks and were designed more for "anti personnel use" with the standard 00 buck round. We rarely trained with them, and they were primarily carried by rear-facing machine gunners in the "rumble seat" of our trucks when travelling through congested areas in the even that someone tried to throw something that went boom into the open area they were sitting in. The "truck gun" under the rear seat of my 4 door jeep is a H&R knockoff of a 870 I bought for $100. I keep an assortment of 00, 7 1/2, and slug rounds handy for it, and if it gets stolen, I'll be much more upset about the broke window than the lost shotgun.
     
  23. geo57

    geo57 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    471
    Location:
    South Central Nebraska
    JShirley wrote :

    " I have had a "failure to stop" on a squirrel with 00 buckshot. I had a friend who suffered a negligent discharge of birdshot to his abdomen from a few feet away as a child. Unless you're talking about 00 buck at almost contact distance, shot is absolutely not a reliable stopper. "



    Was the squirrel hit in the vitals with even one pellet ? 12 Ga. ? And from what distance ? Was the child hit squarely in the abdomen with a full load ? Gauge & load ?

    00 Buck from a 12 Ga. has to be fired from " almost contact distance " to be a reasonably good stopper now ? I would imagine this will come as news to many who have proved otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  24. two gun charlie

    two gun charlie Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    293
    Location:
    Republic of South Africa
    I have heard of a man shot in the head with an ak -47 the round penetrated the skin then went around his head between the skull and the skin and ended somewhere in his neck , he lived to laugh about it and I have heard similar stories ( all true ) off almost every calibre failing to stop an assailant so that is just the way live works , no guarantees
    My uncle shot and killed a leopard at age 16 with a .22 rifle , so we can argue the stopping power of every calibre under the sun untill the cows come home , pure dumb luck often has more to do with it than we would like to admit and the choice of calibre and gun often just comes down to personal preference , if you feel a shotgun makes you feel safe then so be it , if not , buy yourself a canon
     
  25. geo57

    geo57 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    471
    Location:
    South Central Nebraska
    Just as in the post above mine that I asked some detailed info on to make sense of it I'd appreciate hearing if you knew if this fellow that you heard about that was hit by an AK-47 round in the head was struck at about the hairline and the bullet circled around his noggin and ended up in his neck ( somewhat believable ) or was hit much further down , say between the eyes, it then circled, ended up in his neck and he laughed about it ( not so believable ). Knowing the actual facts could / would make a huge difference.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice