Commercially reloaded .45 ACP 230gr plated @1200fps!

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by tcoz, Apr 27, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. tcoz

    tcoz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,268
    Location:
    South Carolina Lowcountry
    My friend and I were chronographing some loads and commercial ammo the other day using his Caldwell G2. He had some 45 ACP 230gr ball that he had purchased from a commercial reloader about a year ago at a gun show that he wanted to check while I was doing something else. When I looked at the results, every round out of two mags (fired in a Remington R1 1911) was just over 1200 fps, using a plated bullet much less. I was stunned to say the least and told him not to shoot any more of it and we'll pull all of them. When I pulled a few of the rounds, they contained 4.7gr of a very fine spherical powder and the bullets were pretty tightly crimped.

    I’m not an expert on this by any means but I checked load data on 10-12 common pistol powders and didn’t see any that would give this kind of velocity from a 4.7gr charge. The company that he bought them from is pretty well known in this area and they’re a pretty small mom and pop operation so I’m sure they would have been using a commercially available powder.

    Does anybody have any thoughts on this? I've never used Quickload but does it have the capability of telling you what powder has the capability to give this kind of velocity in this round? Off the top of my head I was thinking that they must have loaded the ammo with the wrong powder.
     
  2. Ohen Cepel
    • Contributing Member

    Ohen Cepel Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Where they tell me to go
    Are they 45 Super loads by chance? Its worth it to contact the people who made them to see what they say.
     
    1KPerDay and tightgroup tiger like this.
  3. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    The recoil would have been HUGE! - Like twice the normal 45. Did they have MUCH more recoil than other 45 rounds?

    If not, it's a chronograph error.
     
  4. bersaguy

    bersaguy Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,215
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    If you ran a more than a dozen through the chronograph, I'm thinking it's not a chronograph error. But I'd pull and weigh a few of those projectiles, I'm thinking they may me mislabeled 185gr bullets. Even then, that's fast with less than 5 grains of any powder. Sure they're not lightweight frangible or those polycase bullets? Those should get to 1200fps out of a 5" 1911
    Or maybe they loaded them up with these;
    https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/federal-efmj-ammo/
     
  5. Metal God

    Metal God Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    415
    I’d pull one and weigh the bullet . They might be 185’s or even 165’s . Weighing the powder isn’t going to say much . I have 45acp loads in the 4gr to almost 8gr area depending on the bullet and powder .
     
  6. Olon

    Olon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2018
    Messages:
    1,111
    Location:
    Roaming around the Heartland
    Man that's edging into 44 mag territory if your chrony is to be trusted.
     
  7. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2017
    Messages:
    5,194
    Location:
    McKinney, TX
    Yea, the bullet weight must be wrong...
     
  8. tcoz

    tcoz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,268
    Location:
    South Carolina Lowcountry
    They're definitely 45ACP rounds and I weighed ten random bullets which were all 230gr. I asked him about the recoil and he said that the seemed a little hot, but unbeknownst to me he's already shot a couple hundred of them so he doesn't really have anything to compare them with. I first thought it had to be a chronograph error but we ran my 9mm and .308 rounds and his .223 rounds through it and all of them were exactly where they should have been. In addition, one of his 7 round mags yielded an ES of only 9 fps.

    I'm really puzzled about this. He's going to contact the company that he bought them from but I'll be surprised if that leads anywhere.
     
    lordpaxman likes this.
  9. bersaguy

    bersaguy Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,215
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Yeah....if those are indeed 230 grainers hitting 1200fps, I'd set those rounds aside and count your blessings. Best case scenario, that beat the gun all up, worst case...parts go missing. Both the gun's and the shooter's.

    Edit: don't just set those aside, go ahead and break them down. Don't want those finding their way into the chamber of a weaker gun
     
    adcoch1, Slamfire, Demi-human and 3 others like this.
  10. reddog81

    reddog81 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,510
    Location:
    Iowa
    I’ve got over 1200 FPS out of a Hi Point carbine and you could tell those loads were hot. I can’t imagine getting 1200 FPS from a 1911.
     
    Bfh_auto and Slamfire like this.
  11. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2017
    Messages:
    5,194
    Location:
    McKinney, TX
    I'm going to guess they used 4.7grn W296, instead of W231... or AA#7 instead of AA#2 or 5... some mixup like that. That's all I can think of that would produce that kind of velocity...

    6.5grn Unique, a max load, gives me 850fps out of a 5" 1911... I don't know what 1200fps... almost 50% additional velocity... would look and feel like, but I don't really want to know... you know?
     
    Obturation likes this.
  12. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    I'm going with chronograph error. I can't imagine 4.7 grains of any powder producing that kind of velocity with a 230 grain bullet, and I've looked over the fast powders Competition and Nitro 100 of Western Powders and N310 for Vihtavuori, all of which use very small charge weights.

    The recoil produced by a 230 grain bullet that fast in a 1911 would be very obvious that something is very wrong. If he didn't notice that something was horribly wrong, not just 'a little hot', when he fired the first shot, then the chronograph error is the most likely explanation.
     
    Virginia Jim and edwardware like this.
  13. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    4.7 grains of 296 would be lucky to get the bullet out of the barrel at all. Low charge weights and slow powders produce very low speeds, not high speeds.

    It takes 8.6 grains of Accurate #7 to produce 800 fps with a 230 grain berry's bullet, according to Western Powder's data.
     
    Bfh_auto, Rock185, Swampman and 3 others like this.
  14. retDAC

    retDAC Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    Near Huntsville, Ala.
    What is the actual diameter of the 1200fps .45 bullets?
     
  15. tcoz

    tcoz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,268
    Location:
    South Carolina Lowcountry
    The ones that I’ve pulled so far are .451 to .452
     
  16. tcoz

    tcoz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,268
    Location:
    South Carolina Lowcountry
    I can’t completely shake the “chronograph error” theory but again, how could rounds chrono'd before and after these be accurate (I’m sure that they are) and these be that far off?

    I’m not very experienced with optical chronographs (I had a MagnetoSpeed) and I know that lighting can play tricks on them but the G2 is supposed to be much less sensitive to it. It was a cloudless day about 70 degrees which I believe is the type of conditions that can play havoc with typical right side up chronos but shouldn’t with this one.
     
  17. edwardware

    edwardware Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,728
    I'm here too. How experienced is your friend shooting a 1911?

    If you're used to shooting WalMart .45ACP/230gr, then the GI spec at ~850fps is spicey. Shooting 230gr at 1200 would make you stop and think.

    Is it possible the chrony picked up muzzle gas?
     
    Bfh_auto, Toprudder and Texas10mm like this.
  18. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    Chronographs have been know to do weird things. I've had days when everything was reading correctly until i started shooting loads with 3N37. for reasons unknown, those loads were off the chart. but that was a chronograph issue and not because 3N37 is a magical gunpowder.

    We have to be realistic. 4.7 grains of powder won't get any 230 grain bullet to 1200 fps. well, maybe pure nitroglycerin. maybe. but i suspect the gun would be in pieces at the first shot. just imagine the kind of pressure required for that kind of speed with 4.7 grain of any practical, known, gunpowder. in fact those speeds are at the upper limit of what 45 Super and 450 SMC can do, and they run at 28,000 and 32,000 psi, respectively, and they're running larger charge weights of slower powder.

    check out this article that looked at high speed loads in the 45 auto:
    https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-loads-for-the-45-acp/99214

    no powders that can push those bullets that fast are going to be anywhere near 4.7 grains. Now, if you meant to type 14.7 grains, then there are some that will do that, and some that might do it at lesser weights, but not at 4.7. But if someone has a magic gunpowder, i'm all ears.
     
    Rock185 and Demi-human like this.
  19. lordpaxman

    lordpaxman Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,429
    I’d also vote chrono error, especially if he’s shot a lot of them and all pieces are in place. If you’re feeling lucky, try the sharpie trick on the bullets or if you can get a different chrono to cross check the numbers.
     
    Demi-human and Texas10mm like this.
  20. edwardware

    edwardware Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,728
    Say what? How does the sharpie tell you the velocity?
     
    lordpaxman likes this.
  21. drband

    drband Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,623
    Location:
    GA
    color the bullet black with a sharpie so the chrono can pick it up more accurately. Sometimes shiny bullets aren't read by the optical sensors very well.

    How far away from the chronograph were you shooting?
     
    Demi-human likes this.
  22. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    10,846
    Location:
    East TN
    You "paint" the bullet with a black Sharpie to improve the contrast between the bullet and the sky. I did it all the time with 17 and 20 caliber bullets that my optical chronograph had a hard time seeing.
     
    FROGO207, drband and edwardware like this.
  23. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2017
    Messages:
    5,194
    Location:
    McKinney, TX
    Oddly enough, you are right! I had a buddy run that through his QL program... he said it estimated about 350fps! He also said it takes 7.5grn AA#5 to get over 900fps.

    I'm going to have to go back to chrono error. Kinetic energy being what it is, pushing a 230grn .45 bullet at 1200fps out of a 5" pistol must translate to savage recoil.
     
    Rock185, Walkalong and Texas10mm like this.
  24. Bat Rastard

    Bat Rastard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    354
    Location:
    67042
    My chronographs are quirky on cloudless days.
     
    Rock185 likes this.
  25. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,684
    Location:
    Not DFW
    I can't think of a single available powder where 4.8 gr is going to give those velocities. Max charge for TiteBoom is 4.8 gr at 855 fps. You would need something faster and hotter than TiteBoom to obtain velocities like that. Slower powders are going to deliver slower velocities, especially at that small of a charge weight.

    A quick glance AT any data chart will show that slower powders require larger charges.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice