Common caliber question finally settled once and for all time

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If you watch Paul Harrell's service pistol caliber comparison videos he preferred .40 to .45 or 9mm. But then when he compared .40 to .357 Sig he liked .357 Sig better.

I suspect we all have our preferences (I like .40) & our reasons. I also suspect some folks really enjoy spirited debate. Y'all have fun.
 
Yeah, where's the .357 Sig?!

.40 is a good cartridge. I should probably get a conversion barrel for the new G33.
 
I have shot lots of 9mm, 45ACP, 40, 357 Magnum, and 357 SIG. I would agree that the 357 SIG is the best handgun personal defence round. The 125g version of the 357 SIG basically duplicates the ballistic performance of a 357 Magnum with WAY less recoil. The recoil on the 357 Mag is very short but high, whereas the recoil on the 357 SIG is slower and has a notably lower peak.

When I worked briefly with the Texas Department of Public Safety (The Texas State Police), the big story that everyone told was about the time when the department changed from 45 acp to 357 SIG. A rookie and a veteran were teamed up, and the vet had the 45 and the rookie had the new 357 SIG. They were in a firefight with a felon who was inside an over the road tractor. The veteran's 45 acp rounds were denting the truck door but not penetrating. The rookie's 357 SIG rounds went clean through the door AND dispatched the felon. It made a big impression on the troopers. The word got around that the 357 SIG was "like being hit with a bolt of lightning" and would bring down a perp even if he was on drugs.

Sadly, the department later changed to 9mm some years ago. But a LOT of state and Federal agencies use the 357 SIG.

When I moved to Canada, I found that 357 SIG is very hard to get reliably and at a decent price, because Canadian Law Enforcement agencies apparently do not use it anywhere to the extent that the U.,S. ones do. So as a practical measure I changed to 9mm, but always shoot 115g 9mm rounds that are 1300 fps or faster. That's not as good as the 125g SIG 357, but it's better than the 45 acp and the 357 Mag. I like the terminal ballistics of the .40, but I also value accuracy very highly, and the SIG P210A is the most accurate handgun I have ever owned, and that only comes in 9mm, and is way more accurate than any .40 I have owned except for a custom compact pistol built by Fred Craig, which is illegal to own in Canada because its barrel is under 4-1/8" length, so I had to sell it to another Craig collector before I left the U.S.

Jim G
 
When the 40 S&W was introduced it should have settled the argument over 9mm vs 45. It was better than either, at least on paper. 45 has always been over rated. It's not that it is a poor choice, it just isn't any better than 9mm. Never has been. And while the 40 S&W is a little better than 9mm or 45 I completely understand why the current trend is toward 9mm.

In real world situations 40's advantages are marginal at best and don't offset the extra capacity, lower recoil and lower costs. 10mm is the next logical step up from 9mm. But once again I understand that it requires a larger framed gun with more recoil and cost than many want to deal with.

The veteran's 45 acp rounds were denting the truck door but not penetrating. The rookie's 357 SIG rounds went clean through the door AND dispatched the felon.

This is EXACTLY the reason the military wanted to dump 45. The came to that conclusion during WW2. They watched our guys 45 caliber bullets bounce off barriers while German 9mm rounds zipped right through them. The army was wanting to make the move in 1946, but warehouses full of perfectly good 45's, no major war, and budget cuts meant the idea got shelved for almost 40 years.

Sadly, the department later changed to 9mm some years ago. But a LOT of state and Federal agencies use the 357 SIG.

9mm isn't that much of a step down. The better 9mm loads will push a 124 gr bullet to 1300 fps. That's within 50-75 fps of real world 357 Mag speeds with 125 gr bullets from 4" barrels. Actually better than 357 Mag speeds from 3" or shorter barrels.

Considering the reduced mag capacity of 357 Sig, greater recoil, and much, much greater cost 9mm is close enough for me.
 
I'm not sure where folks are getting their 357 Magnum data from but full power 125 grain rounds run at 1,450 fps from a 4.0" barrel.

Also, speeds of a few 9mm 124/127 +P+ can reach 1,300 fps from a 5" barrel.
 
My normal handload for my SIG P210A 9mm is a 115g Hornady hollowpoint zipping along at 1325 fps as measured by Labradar. My P210A is also accurate enough to put 5 of those at 25 yards into under 1.0" inch reliably. I've shot some groups at 0.66".

The 1325 fps means muzzle energy of 448 ft lb.

The Vihtavuori loading manual says I can get even closer to 357 SIG with this load, as it says that it can be safely loaded to 1401 fps, which would be 501 fps. But I think that might be a little hard on the firearm if used consistently.

Jim G
 
About what I expected to see. It really boils down to preference for recoil, size and capacity for the user.

I've usually seen the standard pressure .45 HST have better results, seems to be the case here too out of the long barrel
 
Do a little hunting with them, nothing huge just shoot a couple coyotes or small deer with them. Cut them open and look at the damage. This will answer the question, if everyone did that their would be no debate.
 
I think ammunition manufacturers will
determine the final fate of the .40 S&W
based on sales. The same to a very
lesser degree will apply to the .45ACP
and .357 Sig.

And note how the manufacture of 9mm
Luger is showing up in quantity right
now. That's market predominance.

The 9 mm already dominates the market
for the manufacture of pistols. Not sure
how many beyond a few .40 S&W pistols
or .357 Sigs are being manufactured nowadays.

I don't see our military or the military around
the world nor police agencies suddenly
deciding they no longer want the 9mm.
 
I found that 357 SIG versus 45ACP information in the course of my work at TX DPS, but that was over a decade ago, and i don't have access to it now. HOWEVER, this link will provide more than enough evidence for you, if you read the whole article. VERY pursuasive:

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/TEXAS+DPS+GOES+TO+THE+.357+SIG:.-a056219526

Jim G

Interesting stuff. Particularly this part:

On one occasion, the DPS Academy fired 34 different loads into gelatin. One of the loads was a .357 SIG 125-grain Gold Dot at 1,485 fps that penetrated 15.3 inches of bare gelatin. The bullet expanded to .61 caliber and had a 98 percent weight retention. The "comments" section of the DPS test summary told the real story: "Knocked gel block off the stand." That is the part missing from the FBI test protocol.
 
My normal handload for my SIG P210A 9mm is a 115g Hornady hollowpoint zipping along at 1325 fps as measured by Labradar. My P210A is also accurate enough to put 5 of those at 25 yards into under 1.0" inch reliably. I've shot some groups at 0.66".

The 1325 fps means muzzle energy of 448 ft lb.

The Vihtavuori loading manual says I can get even closer to 357 SIG with this load, as it says that it can be safely loaded to 1401 fps, which would be 501 fps. But I think that might be a little hard on the firearm if used consistently.

Jim G
I am very hesitant to push hot loads in a small case like the 9x19 without anyway of measuring the pressures produced. Glocks are notorious not supporting the case heads. I shoot factory +P+, but only limited quantities.
 
I am very hesitant to push hot loads in a small case like the 9x19 without anyway of measuring the pressures produced. Glocks are notorious not supporting the case heads. I shoot factory +P+, but only limited quantities.

Brad MIller PhD, who writes a lot of the reloading articles for Shooting Times Magazine, reviewed the Vihtavuori load for me, simulated it in Quick Load, and considers it safe. He also then went on to test a number of high velccity 9mm loads, and then later 9 Major loads also, and published a number of safe loads in 2 different articles in Shooting Times.

The Vihtavouri 3N38 powder I am using turned out to be one of his best powders. It has a very slow burn rate for a pistol powder, which limits the peak pressure despite the high muzzle velocities obtained. However, it is an "inefficient" load, as only about 72% of the pwoder is burned before the bullet exits the barrel.

However, despite the inefficiency, you can get up to 1401 fps if you have a strong handgun (fully supported chamber AND overall strong construction), AND there is no visible fireball as this Vihtavuori powder (like other VV powders) burns very clean. The "flash" is a very faint gray that does not even register to my eyes, but an iPhone video taken at high frames per second will capture it. I run a load that is about exactly in the middle of the range that Vihtavuori recommends to get that 1325 fps velocity (per Labradar, at 55 degrees F).

Jim G
 
Rather than shooting for accuracy with head shots he should have shot all three pistols with multiple followup shots at the body (not the head) to compare recovery time between shots. Assuming all three calibers are equally deadly the 9mm will probably win because it has the lowest recoil = fastest followup shots.
I personally like 45 ACP first, 9mm second and 40 third. However my order of preference has nothing to do with test results or scientific data.
Finally the fact that one of the 45 caliber rounds did not expand is an ammunition quality issue not something that can be attributed to the caliber itself.
 
I knew the 40 would win.:cool: :thumbup::D

Win is subjective. Terminal performance on target out of the 3 yeah .40 wins every time. Obviously you get a few more rounds in the magazine with 9mm, but 9mm also recoils less which can make follow up shots a little more accurate.

Plus realistically I spend most of my gun time on the range not shooting at assailants so the fact that 9mm costs less is a major factor.

Still, I've got guns in all 3 calibers and shoot all of them.
 
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