Compact Distance?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by tws3b2, Aug 10, 2022.

  1. tws3b2

    tws3b2 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2019
    Messages:
    732
    Location:
    Asheboro NC
    I don't know exactly how to ask this question.
    I got my carry permit about a year ago but have refused to carry my gun untill I was good enough with it. What is good enough?
    Somehow, In my mind I came up with this. I must be able to consistently put all 12 rounds from my G3c into a 6" Dia. Circle at 7yds. Why 7yds. I don't know really. I think because that was the maximum distance they allowed us to shoot in carry class. That's 3" from the red dot in any direction.
    I think this is where somebody is going to pop up and say " I can shoot a flea off a Nats rear end in mid flight at 60 yards". Great, Good for you. But for me? I wish.
    Today, After nearly a year of really struggling. I think I'm there. Today a 100 rounds and only 3 just barely outside that Circle.
    Then, at the range. A big smile on my face. Proud of my shooting today. At the check out. The guy asked," How did you do today?" I said, Pretty Good. He said. " I was watching you on the monitor. You were standing awful close to that target". Bummer. The smile was gone. Not so proud.
    My question for you who carry, shoot 3" or less barrel, compact handguns.
    Do you have a set accuracy, distance, or whatever limit that you set in your mind that you feel you need to meet?
    Just me asking.
     
  2. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,874
    Location:
    N Idaho
    The FBI qualification course is a good place to start.
    https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-new-fbi-qualification-course

    It's not terribly difficult but is certainly beyond the capabilities of the average CCW holder. The fact you're asking this question means you're probably not average, which is a good thing. It means you've actually put thought into this and aren't treating the gun as a magical talisman. You should do your best to attend some good training as soon as possible too. That'll help immensely with figuring out where you're really at.
     
  3. reddog81

    reddog81 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,871
    Location:
    Iowa
    This is the internet, everybody can shoot a gnat off a fleas rear end at 60 yards!

    realistically getting the gun unholstered and 1 shot on target quickly will be more important than getting the 100 rounds inside a 6” circle at any distance.
     
  4. jar
    • Contributing Member

    jar Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,251
    Location:
    Deep South Texas!!!!!
    You're doing just fine. The important thing is to know your limits. There is no set distance that's just right but rather over time and practice you will gain an understanding of just what are your capabilities. At each stage in your journey the distance where you feel comfortable and adequate is the radius of your concern. Right now that might be 7 yards. A year from now it may be 15 yards but again, the right distance is where you feel you are in control.

    But remember, 21 feet is further than where most self defense incident occur.
     
  5. Captcurt

    Captcurt Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,102
    Location:
    Ozark Mountains of Arkansas
    Finding a club that has IDPA shoots will help. At least, it helped me. Not only is it good training, but it is a lot of fun too, plus you can shoot stock out-of-the-box guns. No need for a $5000 race gun.
     
    easy and Nuke8401 like this.
  6. Waveski

    Waveski Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    3,122
    Location:
    43 north
    Try steel plate competition if you have access to it. Doesn’t have to be real formal - I even waive the timer sometimes.
    Moving aim to targets of varying elevation and range is excellent training. After a while you forget about the mechanics of aiming- which is good.
    Great for skill improvement , lots of fun.
     
  7. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2020
    Messages:
    2,822
    Location:
    South central Ohio
    Best advice anyone could give.

    Work on being accurate first, speed and distance come later. Don't let the gun counter guy discourage you, because your variables aren't the same as his.
     
  8. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,717
    Location:
    NC
    Just and observation from a person past the mid point of their seventh decade. Most outdoor handgun shooting ranges that I've shot on were 25 & 50 yard lines. One organization I was a member of, I petitioned the leadership to put in a 7 or ten yard line for novice shooters. They put in a 7 yard line which became will used by those members shooting handguns. As for myself on my property I put in a 10 Yard line which is adequate for my purposes.
     
    murf, DoubleMag and tws3b2 like this.
  9. Tinman357

    Tinman357 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    543
    Location:
    Puget Sound
    9" paper plate at 25 yards is my go to practice. Most days, all on plate. Not every day. I do "small group" slow shooting as often as possible. I won't be satisfied until I can keep them all in 3" at 25yds. Progress is slow.
     
    tinhorn, DoubleMag and tws3b2 like this.
  10. tws3b2

    tws3b2 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2019
    Messages:
    732
    Location:
    Asheboro NC
    I'm not new to guns. I've been shooting for a good many years. Mostly long guns and some plinking with 22cal. handguns. Actually I'm a pretty good shot with a rifle.
    But, I see carrying a small handgun around in my pocket, around other people and ready to go into self defense mode with it as being a whole different world than hunting with a rifle or shooting at coke cans in the woods. I know what the consequences of a stray shot can be.
    Being able to consistently put all rounds in that circle at 7yds and knowing my gun inside and out is just a minimum I set for myself before I even think about carrying out.
    Where I live is only one outdoor shooting range that offers no shooting classes or anything. At least in a reasonable driving distance.
     
    Tallball likes this.
  11. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,874
    Location:
    N Idaho
    What's "reasonable driving distance" mean to you? Several good options that I know of in or near NC.
     
  12. denton

    denton Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    2,066
    Location:
    Free state of Utah
    I've never had to defend my life, but people I listen to say most gunfights take place closer than 3 yards, and are over in 3 shots and 3 seconds. Stats that I do trust say that if you are accosted and pull out a firearm, 93% of the time your attacker will flee. So only 7% of the time does your accuracy or your weapon even matter.

    There is also a pretty good rule that says that if your attacker is closer than 7 yards, you cannot get your gun on target before your attacker can grab you.

    My net guess is that you're doing very well. If you can quickly bring your gun on target at just beyond your 7 yard range, you're going to be OK. If you practice drawing your weapon, do be very careful. Many accidents happen getting firearms into and out of holsters.

    Here on the internet, I can shoot the mite on the back of the gnat on the back of the fly at 50 yards, one handed in a high wind. IRL, not so much. :)
     
  13. .380

    .380 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2022
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Georgia, USA
    An attacker's body is a lot larger than 6" diameter. I think if you're hitting groups like that you're more than adequate. Like it's been said before, it's more about the motions in the heat of the moment. Being able to quickly and safely unholster and get those shots off. Your range and grouping are plenty fine, in my opinion
     
  14. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,874
    Location:
    N Idaho
    Here's a good target to help you work on precision. Start at 3 yards and move back as you master it.
     

    Attached Files:

    .380 likes this.
  15. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    8,842
    Location:
    Ca.
    I posted this picture of the red-white target in another thread.

    Every once in a while I will take a picture of a target next to me where the shooter is peppering away rapid-fire and is all over the place. This shooter was at seven yards.

    101A5F6E-7890-46CB-8534-5DB2DA0C1900.jpeg

    A few good shots. A batch of not so good shots. He could really benefit from some good instructors.

    You are on the right path. Slow down, focus on the fundamentals of breathing, sight picture, trigger press, follow through, and you’ll be shooting well enough to satisfy yourself before you know ot. :thumbup:

    I shoot a lot. Ive had lots of training, was taught how to teach folks, won a few trophies a while back, etc.

    But I know I can’t hold a candle to the good shooters, those guys are amazing. Auto and revolver Bullseye shooters, IDPA and 3-gun runners and gunners, etc. blow me out of the water with nary a worry. But I still go out and practice with a variety of handguns. I shoot almost exclusively between 10-15 yards, because A) almost all defensive shootings are in this range and B) the range I frequent has a band of brighter lights at that distance that make it easier for me to see my targets. I will stretch it to 20-25 with some guns, like my Colt Officers Model Heavy Barrel .38 below if that gun is made for it.

    If I can keep almost all of them in the 9-ring I am thrilled. 8-ring is still a very solid hit, those are good in my eyes. Go ahead and practice, and seek additional training, for no other reasons than it is fun and could possibly save your life someday.

    Keep it up, you’re doing just fine. :)

    985D4EEB-C01D-4902-BC0D-9BDABC350D56.jpeg 8016BC1C-CE06-44F9-A28C-031F8D1006FA.jpeg 0C2B4AA2-4937-4036-8072-927AE2249920.jpeg FB7FEACE-5C1E-4215-B527-BA736E56F21D.jpeg FF581A0A-F245-4EFC-B4C8-0B7D354C02E0.jpeg 99963EA0-9A63-4CB4-B0E3-4FF8C0D18CD7.jpeg DAA0848C-8CDB-404F-AF50-4B45218F9F59.jpeg
    One of my best days ever at 12 yds., 30 shots with the then-new Kimber 9mm. 300/29x, I threw one late. (This is not a regular occurrence, but somedays it just all comes together. :))

    Stay safe.
     
  16. shafter

    shafter Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,560
    I would strongly encourage you to attend a class that focuses on defensive shooting. Warrior Poet Society offers superb training for all levels of shooters but there are other great companies as well. Often professional instruction can drastically reduce the learning curve.

    You're to be commended for holding yourself to a standard and trying to get better. Lots of dry fire at home will help you alot as will youtube videos going over the fundamentals. Sometimes just a little change in how you hold the gun and attention to your trigger squeeze can make all the difference.
     
    GEM, .38 Special, bearcreek and 2 others like this.
  17. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,167
    Location:
    Columbia, SC
    Look at the statistics. You are extremely unlikely to ever have to draw your concealed carry firearm. Based on the news stories I see on TV, read about in newspapers and online news articles, if you do have to draw your firearm to defend yourself, the distance between you and the bad guy will rarely be more than a few feet. My advice would be to increase your situational awareness skills first, practice drawing your firearm from concealment second, learn retention concepts third then work on your accuracy at distances beyond arms length. Just my two cents.
     
  18. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,866
    Location:
    FL USA
    A 6 inch circle at 7 yards, that is a accuracy standard.
    Are we doing 1 shot per second? Two shots per second? Three shots per second?
    Speed is a factor.
     
    trackskippy and DoubleMag like this.
  19. Archie

    Archie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,071
    Location:
    Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
    I find a 8.5x11 sheet of copy paper (typically the one's fouled up and of no original use) at seven to ten yards (depends on range used and mood) is about what I would expect defensive conditions to be. Your groups will get smaller as you get better and more confident. Remember to keep those groups centered on where YOU think they should be going; that is, they should land where YOU intended them. ("Sighting in" is the normal phrase.) As one learns trigger control and such, the center of the group may change (to the better). Work with this idea instead of against it.

    Remember:
    ... the first shot delivered is more important than a rapid barrage.
    ... 'time' does not begin when someone blows the whistle or the timer beeps. It starts when the villain decides YOU are a threat.
    ... do not - for practice - assume a special position. Doing so when confronted will signal your intentions; doing so will not account for various problems you might face.
     
    Armored farmer likes this.
  20. nick22

    nick22 Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Ohio
    It sounds like you're serious about defending yourself and practicing diligently welcome to the club. I believe Clint Smith put it well when he said no one will have to tell you to shoot fast if you're in a gunfight. I like some others here have suggested would say formal training would be of a great benefit to anyone serious about defense it's so much more than groups on a square range. It's situational awareness along with the mindset that if this I happens I am legally and in my opinion morally compelled to respond with appropriate force which is rarely a firearm. My opinion is you sound more prepared than most CCW holders, stay strapped and ready.
     
    tws3b2 likes this.
  21. Howland937

    Howland937 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2020
    Messages:
    2,822
    Location:
    South central Ohio
    Something else to consider that you probably already know since you have been shooting a while is that maybe that particular gun isn't the best option for you. Have you tried the same practice sessions with a different gun?
    We probably all shoot some guns better than we shoot others. I've had guns I couldn't shoot worth 2 cents then watched someone else pick it up and never miss.
     
  22. JDeere

    JDeere Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2020
    Messages:
    860
    Yep and practicing with your self defense weapon at 25 yds is BS and not necessary. See it all the time and I just shake my head. To the op your thought of 7 yds is spot on and sufficient for practice. There is a reason that yardage is used.
     
  23. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    8,242
    Location:
    Fl panhandle
    The golden rule (for me) when it comes to ability with firearms and martial arts: There's always room for improvement; know your capabilities and continue to seek self improvement. This is after a 23 year career in Special Operations and attending almost all of the advanced schools and instructor courses (and a bunch of deployments), another 4 as a contractor working overseas for the federal gov't, a slew of 3 gun and other matches, and I don't know how many successful hunting trips. Yet I am still not where I want to be, because I never will be there. Its a paradox. At this point in your development as a shooter, spending some time with a credentialed instructor willing to be brutally honest with you to start honing off rough edges would probably pay dividends.
     
    entropy, SimonRL, MifflinKid and 3 others like this.
  24. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,906
    You asked, "What is good enough?" That all depends on what youre trying to do. To a bullseye shooter who strives for tight little groups, hits on target in more realistic shooting would look like a mess.

    I look at it this way, bullseye shooting, as challenging as it can be and Im not knocking it, is really nothing more than confirmation you have the basics down. Its the starting point for everything, and really not very realistic for most everything else.

    I think the goal here, is to be able to shoot, without having to think about the act of shooting, and to quickly make multiple good hits on target, and up close, 7-5 yards and in, preferably while you're moving as you shoot, and shooting over the top of the gun, without using the sights.

    And of course, this all starts from your concealed holster, and a good bit of your practice should reflect that.


    I think the recent mall food court shooting has shown a lot of people, they really need to up their game and be able to shoot well at the longer distances if needed.

    Realistically, you should be able to make good solid body hits at 50 yards, from a barracade-type rest. That would be head shots at 25 yards.

    All this "Rule of 3's" crap is not doing you anyone any good, if you buy into it.
     
    Ethan Verity likes this.
  25. kidneyboy

    kidneyboy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,744
    Location:
    SE WI
    This is never emphasized enough.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice