compact heavy firepower for wilderness helicopter travel

[bluejeans]

as some of you know, i am a forester by profession and have for decades lived, worked and hiked in the rockies of the pcific northwest usually carrying a .357 mag ( S&W mod 66 or more recently a 327 8-shot)
now i'm starting to take more work in remote parts of alaska and i think its time for a new gun ( always a good excuse ) so i'm looking for ideas/opinion/suggestions. this is to be a designated bear gun but i'm opening this thread in search of a platform that fits my needs .. not so much a caliber debate.
my criteria:
1. sufficient power against large bears
2. compact (must fin in my lap in the chopper with all my gear.
3. weather resistant

i am being dropped off and picked up every day to remote loactions by chopper. i carry my work gear and a survival pack in case the weather turns bad and i have to spend a night or two waiting untio the chopper can make it back. while in the chopper i must be able to carry all my gear in my lap (work vest, survival pack and gun.) as a side note the helicopter company forbids carrying bear spray in their choppers ( sudden changes in altitude/ barometric pressure can cause the cans to spontaniously explode which means the chopper goes gown and everybody dies.)

up til now i i have been carrying a S&W 629 44 mag in a chest rig.. but now i'm leaning toward a carbine of sorts..

my ideas so far:
1-- i have a remmington 7600 30-06 carbine. 18" barrel. i could put a shotgun folding stock on it (from a remmington 870 which would give me an OAL of 27". made of blued steel though which would rust like crazy in the rain.
2-- buy a S&W 460 magnum.. good power in a small package but still very heavy and hard to get off good followup shots.
3-- buy a levergun in 45/70 like the marlin guide gun which is stainless... but would be too big unless i convert it to takedown... but then i'd have to load and unload the magazine tube twice a day
4--an AR-10 based pistol in a big bore cartridge like the 45 raptor
5-- an AR 15 based carbine in 450 bushmaster or 458 socom with a law tactical folding stock adapter..
6. buy a nice 10mm (like the sig 220) ... not any better than the guns i have but just a good excuse to buy something i want that's general purpose.
7-- 12g shotgun (remmignton 870/ mos 500) not the best of anything but multipurpose and acceptfable for bear with slugs... and its cheap enough i won't care when it rusts.)

so far i'm thinking than an AR in 450 bushmaster (12" barrel pistol or 16" carbine with a law folder) is about as compact as i can get with a shootablle big bore...

what are your thoughts? let's hear 'em!

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

I like the 12 gauge idea. An 870 or 500 is as simple and robust as they come and the configuration and load choices (buck/slugs/chamber length choice) offer you and huge universe of tailoring options.

And I’m assuming, in your official capacity, you wouldn’t be limited by magazine limitations, so you could add a mag extension to an 870. Weight would be your issue, but only you could decide what’s acceptable to you.

 

[Tpr0811]

Hard to go wrong with a shotgun.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Id go lightweight AR10 or Springfield SOCOM 16, nothing fancy. 20 rounds of .308 will put anything down quick, plenty of range if needed.

 

[Stew0576]

I chose the lever gun, can be used to gather food as well as protection, you never know what will happen in your situation

 

[Stew0576]

I would also recommend a big bore pistol also, the pistol would always be on you, sooner or later you will end up putting the long gun down

 

[Zaydok Allen]

So just addressing a few of your listed ideas.

A 12 gauge with slugs would work well.

A stainless “Guide gun” by marlin in 45-70 would work well.

The 460 magnum? I love me the 460 cartridge, which is obvious from my screen name, and with 395 or 360 grain loads it could get the job done. But you’d want to load your own. It’s a big ass heavy gun and it’s louder than you can believe if you haven’t shot one before. After years of shooting one and having carried one here and there, it’s just not what I’d recommend. The 460 mag cartridge shines with its ability to shoot flat at long handgun distances. Alaskan bush often precludes long shots though, and you want mass and diameter, not extended range. I think you’d be better off with a 6.5” barreled 500 magnum where you can lob some truly heavy bullets.

The 450 bushmaster idea is a good one, but you’ll lose some velocity out of a short barrel. Capacity could be a plus if wolves are an issue also.

The Sig 220 in 10mm is a fine gun, in fact I just picked up my second one. Love it. But Alaskan brown bear, and moose which are also really dangerous, are way bigger in a lot of cases than inland Rockies grizzlies. I would have faith in the 10mm for those beasts, but given your likelihood of encountering a large bear, given what you do, I’d sooner carry your 629 with heavy loads.

If it were me, I’d favor a 45-70 lever gun, or a 500 magnum. Both are heavy, but heavy is what you need.

You still doing stand exam?

 

[imac98374]

Rugged/bigg(er) bore/easy to maintain/compact and reliable as-can-be? What about an AK variant with a folding stock? Maybe a Magpul Zhukov. Dressed up in Magpul furniture with a 10-20 rnd magazine it even looks vaguely 1st world?

 

[WrongHanded]

A well built stainless steel big bore revolver will always be on you, whether carried on the belt or in a chest rig. It's faster to bring up than a long arm, unless the long arm is carried in the two-handed ready position, and even then the revolver may be as fast. It can be used one handed and at contact distance if necessary. And can be covered by a garment from bad weather if truly required. I can't see a good reason for anything else. I'd find someone who knows about the potential of .480 Ruger, and consider a SRH for the DA capability.

 

[BSA1]

I believe a "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" or something like that.

By that I mean I would not give up carrying a handgun. Being landlocked here in the Land of Oz I have thought about working a occupation such as yours or going on a hunting trip by air in remote Alaska and what I would do if the helo / airplane crashed leaving me on my own.

Suppose the helo went down in a lake and sank or crashed on land and burned before I could rescue my gear. All I have is what I have on my person and no cell phone service.

Or my transportation crashed before it reached me.

Who knows if they picked me up before the crash or where I am or when they will be able to search and get to me? I may have my survival pack but suppose bad weather moves in before they figure I was not in the wreck. The bad weather keeps everything grounded for a lengthy period of time. I can build shelter but I sure would like a powerful handgun in it with me rather than trying to bring along gun into action when a bear decides to come in.

A handgun would be near the top of the list along with such items as firestarters (making fire is most important), knife / multitool (more than one), etc.

A big bore handgun in military cross chest holster would seem ideal as it is designed for carry by pilots. Snag free when carried under a jacket / rain gear.

Long gun I am not sure about. I think a lightweight AR-15 would deserve a lot of consideration. It will easily break into two parts for storage. The 5.56 will take down deer and small game with careful shot placement for food.

Maybe M855 or heavy weight bullet ammo for bear? (Although I figure if the bear is already mad enough to charge me I have my doubts about any gun being enough).

Bolt gun with loaded magazine and extra ammo on the sling? Everything all together and no magazine to worry about losing. I would probably choose my Ruger Stainless Steel All-Weather in .270. But size is a issue in a helo.

Lever action takedown rifle like the Co-Pilot is really cool but expensive. Ammo supply is a concern. Can the magazine be keep loaded when it is taken apart? If not then I would be limited to the ammo on a buttstock cartridge holder and I could add a sling the holds cartridges also.

edited; I decided my Ruger 270 is too big for the O.P.'s requirements. Reconsidering the Savage Model 110 Hog Hunter in .308.

 

[jmr40]

The Alaska game and fish dept did a pretty extensive test on what worked well on big bear several years ago. I used to have the link bookmarked but can't find it at the moment. Some surprises in their findings despite what you always hear. Shotgun slugs performed poorly as did 45-70 and 444. Their top choice was 375 mag with 30-06 a close 2nd when loaded with 200-220 gr bullets. Lighter bullets did not fare as well with 30-06. The magnums larger than 375 didn't perform any better. And nothing tested between 30-06 and 375 performed any better than 30-06. That included rounds such as 35 Whelen and 338 WM. They didn't test handgun rounds.

In a nutshell they felt that for most people a short barreled 30-06 made the most sense. While the 375 was somewhat better, they felt that the recoil might more than offset the better performance. In the study they specifically mentioned the 7600 carbine chambered in 30-06 as a viable option. Or bolt guns with shorter barrels. For this use the velocity from longer barrels isn't a concern. The 300 MW actually tied 30-06, but due to excessive recoil and rifle weight they didn't choose it over 30-06. Personally I have more faith that a bolt gun will be far more reliable in rugged conditions than a pump rifle. Pump shotguns operate at much lower pressures and have proven quite reliable. Pump rifles at much higher chamber pressure, not so much.

If that is too big I'd carry either a G20 or G29 loaded with some 200-220 gr hardcast bullets in 15 round magazines. Truth is they work as well as anything else and are a lot smaller and compact. They are quickly replacing bigger guns as the top choice among Alaskan bush pilots in case they are forced down and need a gun. The heavy for caliber hardcast bullets have proven to work and got a lot of attention after Phil Shoemaker killed a huge grizzly that attacked a client with 147 gr hard cast from a subcompact 9mm pistol a couple of years ago. Would be even better with 220 gr 10mm loads.

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

Here is another study that I can find the link to. It profiles 37 incidents involving both black and grizzly bear. You're not going to see the really big bear except in limited spots on the SE Alaskan coast, or polar bear in the northern most parts. In 36 of the 37 cases the handgun worked to stop the attack. The only failure was because the shooter missed with a 357 mag. The 44 mag was the most commonly used, but 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm and 45 ACP combined for the most successful stops. A handgun at close range works better than most people think. And I don't think you need the hand cannons for protection. They have a niche as a hunting tool where longer shots are needed.

.https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5Ucf4zGTb

 

[bluejeans]

I’d better add...
If I get a carbine I would still always carry my 44 or 357 mag ... the long gun will eventually be leaning against a tree while I work and I will always want a handgun on me. If I were to get a larger pistol (ie 460/500 s&w) that would be my only firearm.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I guess it depends on how much of a hindrance a long gun would be, and how likely you are to have it right there at arms reach when you need it. An obvious power advantage where defense against large bears is a possibility, but doesn't do you any good if you left it leaning against a tree somewhere over there when Mr. or Mrs. griz decides you look tasty.

Unless I were actively hunting or acting as a hunting guide, I'd probably opt for a .454, .460 or .500 mag with a ~6" barrel so that it'd be with me but not impeding me in whatever it is I need to do.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I’d better add...
If I get a carbine I would still always carry my 44 or 357 mag ... the long gun will eventually be leaning against a tree while I work and I will always want a handgun on me. If I were to get a larger pistol (ie 460/500 s&w) that would be my only firearm.

In that case, I'd probably take a .308 AR carbine loaded with 180 gr. partitions or bear claws. It might not have the oomph of a big magnum or big bore lever gun, but those bullets penetrate, and 25 rounds semi-auto in a fast handling rifle would be a better choice for defense against almost anything than a heavier recoiling, slower firing, lower capacity rifle.

 

[jamesjames]

If I had unlimited funds I would go with a S&W 329PD loaded with Buffalo Bore low-recoil hard cast 44 magnums. The 329PD carries like it’s not even there.

Then bring along a Mossberg 500 variant customized with folding stock. Slug gun all the way, baby. I like Kifaru’s Gun Bearer long gun sling system for back packs. It carries the rifle butt in a web pouch on your hip belt and the barrel fastened to the shoulder strap with a Velcro tab. The long gun is worn with the back pack and is always at the ready and can be brought to bear in an instant, yet both hands are free for working.

 

[bluejeans]

Id go lightweight AR10 or Springfield SOCOM 16, nothing fancy. 20 rounds of .308 will put anything down quick, plenty of range if needed.

The Springfield m1a so com is HEAVY!.. I like the ar10 but given my barrel length limitations I’m not sure I’d gain much from the added case capacity...

I would also recommend a big bore pistol also, the pistol would always be on you, sooner or later you will end up putting the long gun down

.
If I get a carbine I would still keep my 44 or 357 in a chest holster for the exact reason you brought up.

The Alaska game and fish dept did a pretty extensive test on what worked well on big bear several years ago. I used to have the link bookmarked but can't find it at the moment. Some surprises in their findings despite what you always hear. Shotgun slugs performed poorly as did 45-70 and 444. Their top choice was 375 mag with 30-06 a close 2nd when loaded with 200-220 gr bullets. Lighter bullets did not fare as well with 30-06. The magnums larger than 375 didn't perform any better. And nothing tested between 30-06 and 375 performed any better than 30-06. That included rounds such as 35 Whelen and 338 WM. They didn't test handgun rounds.

In a nutshell they felt that for most people a short barreled 30-06 made the most sense. While the 375 was somewhat better, they felt that the recoil might more than offset the better performance. In the study they specifically mentioned the 7600 carbine chambered in 30-06 as a viable option. Or bolt guns with shorter barrels. For this use the velocity from longer barrels isn't a concern. The 300 MW actually tied 30-06, but due to excessive recoil and rifle weight they didn't choose it over 30-06. Personally I have more faith that a bolt gun will be far more reliable in rugged conditions than a pump rifle. Pump shotguns operate at much lower pressures and have proven quite reliable. Pump rifles at much higher chamber pressure, not so much.

If that is too big I'd carry either a G20 or G29 loaded with some 200-220 gr hardcast bullets in 15 round magazines. Truth is they work as well as anything else and are a lot smaller and compact. They are quickly replacing bigger guns as the top choice among Alaskan bush pilots in case they are forced down and need a gun. The heavy for caliber hardcast bullets have proven to work and got a lot of attention after Phil Shoemaker killed a huge grizzly that attacked a client with 147 gr hard cast from a subcompact 9mm pistol a couple of years ago. Would be even better with 220 gr 10mm loads.

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

Here is another study that I can find the link to. It profiles 37 incidents involving both black and grizzly bear. You're not going to see the really big bear except in limited spots on the SE Alaskan coast, or polar bear in the northern most parts. In 36 of the 37 cases the handgun worked to stop the attack. The only failure was because the shooter missed with a 357 mag. The 44 mag was the most commonly used, but 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm and 45 ACP combined for the most successful stops. A handgun at close range works better than most people think. And I don't think you need the hand cannons for protection. They have a niche as a hunting tool where longer shots are needed.

.https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5Ucf4zGTb

Good info the and with references to boot! Thank you. I recently read that whole Ammoland study which was quite encouraging

 

[JohnKSa]

If that is too big I'd carry either a G20 or G29 loaded with some 200-220 gr hardcast bullets in 15 round magazines.

Just playing around with the numbers from BBTI's website. Looks like going from a G29 to a G20 buys you about 50fps. About the same difference as going from the standard G20 barrel to a 6" bbl, or going from a G20 to a G40.

That's with heavy bullet loadings (175gr or heavier).

 

[Bush Pirate]

Bluejeans you should have went to school to be a doctor...lol. I share your occupation and did work in SE AK for a few summers. I recommend a 12 gauge folder(3 1/2). We had to carry .375 bolt rifles, magazine full, chamber empty, safety off. Duct tape over muzzle. We worked in two person crews, and it was always an argument on who had to carry the gun...Nobody ever wanted to. With all the work gear it's just extra to carry, which hopefully don't need, but don't want to be without. We did get to carry bear spray in helicopter it needed to be sealed in ammo can in case pressure change blew can. Stay safe and try to stay dry.

 

[John Joseph]

When I was flying a Supercub in Alaska the S&W M29 was what a lot of pilots carried because not only was it compact, you could shoot and reload with one hand. Broken arms were common injuries in unplanned for landings.
Lots of people carried shotguns---I didn't because it's too easy to dent or bend a thin wall shotgun barrel in a crash, and what good is a shotgun with a dented or bent barrel?
Since I couldn't bring a Model 29 across Canada, I carried a Winchester M1894 in 30-30 as it was compact and accurate, could provide meat for the pot and would be better bear medicine than my fists,

 

[TJ AK-74]

I'd probably go with an AR10 pistol. 25 rds of .308 should stop a bear and it would be more compact than a carbine/rifle but with similar power. Or maybe an AK47 pistol with 75rd drum mag. Or an 18in Saiga 12 with 10rd mags and folding stock.

 

[entropy]

A pod of Zunis off each side, complemented by bungee-hung M60D's in each side door.
Seriously, An 870 DM Pistol with a brace. If you're firing at a bear, you will never feel the recoil.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

I'm just a dummy from Kansas that's never had to be in brown bear territory. But I think I'd want an AR10 with a 16" or 18" barrel. Or a 12ga Rem 870 or Mossberg 500, mariner" version, with a shorter fixed stock and mag extension. And an 8 shot .357 with 3 or 4" barrel.

Personally I think I'd go with a 12ga. And I'd try to carry at least 10 slugs and 10-20 rounds of ammo for small game. If something happens where they couldn't get back to me for a week or more I'd want to be able to hunt and with a 12ga you can take just about any type of game if you have a variety of ammo. But an AR10 and 2-3 mags might be just as light and you could still hunt bigger game. But if that ever becomes necessary the problem with big game is that a kill is going to attract bears.

Some pre-made snares for small game might be a good thing to have, regardless of which long gun you might choose. Trapping small game can be a lot less work (better for survival) and small game is usually more plentiful.

Edit: this would be my choice. $100 or so cheaper than a similar Remington. Holds 1 more round than the Remington. And quite frankly I've never had a Mossberg jam up like a Remington. Granted, I've only jammed up an 870 if I short-shucked it, but I would want to risk that happening with a mad momma bear running at me. https://grabagun.com/msbrg-mariner-590-12-20-8rd-syn-pg.html

 

[bluejeans]

I had forgotten to mention the browning blr which is available as a takedown and in stainless steel. Another advantage over other lever guns is that it is mag fed so I wouldn’t have to empty the tube every time.

Added it to the poll

 

[MachIVshooter]

I still vote .308 AR carbine. Compact, fast handling, lots of fire power, and takedown by virtue of original design

 

[Sour Kraut]

I’m assuming you are already taking bear spray..... I’ve read elsewhere that the 10mm really isn’t all that powerful for big bear, irrespective of some successful kills. Read the available ballistics and compare it to some big bore revolvers. Sure...even a 22 “could” dispatch a large Bruin, but I would NOT want to bet my life on 10mm if I had a choice. My nephew lives in Alaska and we carry 454s when we fish. In your case, I would wear one in a chest rig. As for long gun. For compactness perhaps an AR in 308. As always....YMMV.