Compare with Screen Fiction

[lemaymiami]

I need to make one last point here… In my experience over a 22 year career, something that happens in front of you may take a moment or two in processing to even figure out if it’s a good guy or bad guy that’s running up to you… On more than one occasion all I knew was that I needed to act if I could figure out what was going down… Very bad position to be in. That’s why you learned early to keep your distance and move to where you had a position of relative safety if at all possible… whenever your internal alarm bells were ringing…

That’s not a bad idea for any armed citizen either since the good guys don’t always look it and the bad guy might be dressed like a banker and not showing his (or her) bad intentions… understatement.

 

[Kleanbore]

There are classic behaviors that people engage in when they're setting you up for an assault. And I can quote recognised SMEs like Masad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Craig Douglas, Kathy Jackson, Tatiana Whitlock (shall I go on?) and others who are on record as saying the exact same thing. They even give classes on how to recognize it.

Yes indeed.

I have become aware of these behaviors as a result of my training and experience. When I see a person that I don't know engaging in these pre assaultive behaviors and they're directing those behaviors at me I find it to be a cause for concern.

Good. I agree.

But you did not speak of "pre-assaultive behaviors". You simply said "going out of his way to engage me". That very non-specific description could be taken to describe someone asking for directions, trying to let you know that your car window is open, mistaking you for someone else, intending to issue a summons, or any number of other things. I'm sure that such actions would not alarm you unduly.

So, what's the problem?

Suppose you are forced to threaten or use deadly force to legitimately defend yourself.

After the fact, whether your action was reasonable--and lawful-- will be judged by people who were not there, based on incomplete evidence. Some evidence may be contradictory, and some, damaging. Witnesses are more than likely to look up and see things that took place after their attention has been drawn to a situation. Shots are fired, and a witness sees only a shooter and a victim, and so testifies. The witness never notices any aggressive actions or "threats".

An ambiguous comment taken out of context that an be taken out of context to indicate that the defendant regards anyone approaching him as a "threat" could prove extremely damaging at trial.

That's why we repeatedly emphasize that anything written or anything posted in a public venue should be carefully evaluated for possible misinterpretation before it is created.

I hope this helps.

By the way, going back to the example, it is for reasons pertaining to witnesses that Mas and the others recommend that defenders warn their possible assailants very loudly before using force.

 

[fastbolt]

...

Would you expect someone stopping next to you in a car to jump out and try to kill you without warning?

...

Back when I was working? Absolutely. Normal, prudent officer safety awareness when in Public and wearing a uniform/target.

Now that I'm retired and not distinguishable from any other non-LE individual? Not so much, but it still sends up sudden red flags if someone suddenly stops a veh near me when they ought not do so under normal circumstances. The world is filled with crazies. Ditto people on bikes or on foot. Remaining cautiously aware of unusual/sudden behavior is a hard habit to shake after a few decades of seeing what people can, and will, do to each other.

The usual pre-attack indicators may not be visible or available to notice if the source of the threat suddenly comes from outside our attention.

 

[The Night Rider]

We are almost to the end of the first quarter of the 21st Century. Social mores have changed.

It is not normal for a random stranger to attempt to engage you in conversation. It is not normal for someone you don't know to attempt to interact with you beyond common courtesies.

It is abnormal behavior and most of those trainers that I listed in my previous post will tell you that it should raise a red flag.

My original comment was

"If I don't know you and you're going out of your way to engage me you are a threat."

In order to please Kleanbore and whatever notional prosecuting attorney I may someday have to explain myself to I will amplify my original comment.

If I don't know you and you are going out of your way to interact with me, if you are going out of your way to enter my space, if you have singled me out from the crowd for your approach I am going to regard your behavior as threatening until I know otherwise.

I'm also not going to let you approach within my personal space. It is abnormal behavior for one person to ask a stranger to keep their distance and to have that stranger disregard that request that is a huge red flag.

That's what I would start making the really loud vocal commands such as "Get away from me!" "I don't know you, don't approach me!"

 

[Blue Jays]

Our advances with personal electronics have also radically altered genuine need for nearby interaction.

Example:
- Why would a person under 80 y.o. approach me to ask for driving directions? Red Flag
- Why would a person on the street ask me about restaurant recommendations? Red Flag
- Why would a person approach me to know time of day? Clocks are on everything. Red Flag

 

[Mk VII]

Example tonight at the gas station: guy coming up to people pumping gas and panhandling them (or trying to, not very successfully). He started with me and then broke off and tried someone else. Was he a threat? Probably not. Might he become one? Maybe.

 

[Kleanbore]

t is not normal for a random stranger to attempt to engage you in conversation. It is not normal for someone you don't know to attempt to interact with you beyond common courtesies.

It is abnormal behavior

But it is by no means uncommon behavior, and such a lay persons opinion RE: normal human behavior has absolutely no meaning in use of force law.

most of those trainers that I listed in my previous post will tell you that it should raise a red flag.

Any reasonable person would likely move up a notch on the color scale, but that would not, in and of itself, justify an overt threat of force.

My original comment was

"If I don't know you and you're going out of your way to engage me you are a threat."

Again, taken out of context, being quoted out of context as having said that could prove quite damaging in the event of a use of force incident with ambiguous evidence.

I'm also not going to let you approach within my personal space. It is abnormal behavior for one person to ask a stranger to keep their distance and to have that stranger disregard that request that is a huge red flag.

I see your poi nt. Your only practical and lawful response, however, may be to increase your distance, even in a stand your ground jurisdiction.

Here is a reality check. Not too long ago, a female shopper in a gun-friendly state was putting groceries in her car. A man approached her to ask something (not "normal"?). She subjectively regarded him as "a threat".

She drew a firearm and ordered him away. He was the first to call it in. She was arrested and charged.

After making a lot of noise in the media about how she could not understand how ir was she who ended up in handcuffs, she pled, out of court, to a criminal charge.

Let's be careful out there.

That's what I would start making the really loud vocal commands such as "Get away from me!" "I don't know you, don't approach me!"

Okay.

 

[.38 Special]

Hmm. Here in most of California (and Nevada and Arizona) it doesn't strike me as out-of-the ordinary to have strangers strike up a conversation. Having someone cross the street to do it would set off some alarms, but waiting in line, or in a grocery store aisle, or even coincidentally heading the same direction while walking to or from a parked vehicle in a lot, well, some folks are just pretty social. I'm definitely not, but I still wouldn't feel justified in barking orders every time some stranger wants to chat about the weather.

 

[fastbolt]

...
If I don't know you and you are going out of your way to interact with me, if you are going out of your way to enter my space, if you have singled me out from the crowd for your approach I am going to regard your behavior as threatening until I know otherwise.

I'm also not going to let you approach within my personal space. It is abnormal behavior for one person to ask a stranger to keep their distance and to have that stranger disregard that request that is a huge red flag.

That's what I would start making the really loud vocal commands such as "Get away from me!" "I don't know you, don't approach me!"

While I can understand your sentiment and reasoning, this is one of the Yes, No & Maybe things.

A lost and confused elderly person, or a child, or someone in distress who is looking for help from someone they may think appears safe and trustworthy, and whose culture and/or upbringing includes closer 'personal space' boundaries than your own, might not send up the same red flags as some gibbering person mouthing obscenities or making wild arm movements who is stumbling toward you with blood in their eye. Or a group of young males who suddenly stop their car next to you on the sidewalk, and are holding weapons in the hands as they jump out of their car and rush toward you.

Basically, considering the totality of the circumstances, and using some application of common sense and reasonableness, might still be handy.

You really want to be shouting out those things as a scared child, young girl or elderly woman is walking toward you too closely?

Then again, I was approached by people everyday when I was working, and the significant majority of them simply wanted to talk, or ask for help, or tell me about something they thought merited my attention, etc.

Hell, I still sometimes find myself being approached by people in stores, probably because I'm looking at people around me and apparently have that "ask me" or "I work here" look about me.

My wife says it's because I no longer look as automatically intimidating and suspicious of people as I used to when I was working.

Maybe so. I recently cut off my mustache and goatee, to 'reboot' the length and trim it all differently. The last time I was without a mustache was in the early 80's. My wife, and several men and women at my cigar club who have never seen me without a long mustache (or goatee), also commented on how 'approachable' and non-intimidating I appeared without facial hair. Funny how people let themselves and society norms wire their software about such things.

 

[Jeff White]

My wife says it's because I no longer look as automatically intimidating and suspicious of people as I used to when I was working.

I didn't know you could wash it off. I've been retired several years and still get "made" by people with experience in the criminal justice system.

Maybe so. I recently cut off my mustache and goatee, to 'reboot' the length and trim it all differently. The last time I was without a mustache was in the early 80's. My wife, and several men and women at my cigar club who have never seen me without a long mustache (or goatee), also commented on how 'approachable' and non-intimidating I appeared without facial hair. Funny how people let themselves and society norms wire their software about such things.

My wife likes my goatee too much, she would be disappointed if I shaved it off. I really think getting "made" has more to do with your mannerisms and how you carry yourself....

 

[CDW4ME]

I'm also not going to let you approach within my personal space. It is abnormal behavior for one person to ask a stranger to keep their distance and to have that stranger disregard that request that is a huge red flag.

That's what I would start making the really loud vocal commands such as "Get away from me!" "I don't know you, don't approach me!"

Wal-Mart parking lot in KY several years ago...
I'm walking to my vehicle when I see a guy approaching, his is walking toward me; by his appearance, I assume he is going to ask for money and I start shaking my head NO.
Me shaking my head NO does not stop his movement toward me so I continue shaking my head NO and start saying loudly NO, NO, NO.
He did turn and walk off (way closer than I wanted him to be) getting into a van that had other people in it.
That incident prompted my to start carrying a 2nd handgun in my weak hand front pocket; I was carrying a Glock on belt but could not put my hand on it without revealing I was carrying and the situation did not merit that. I would have liked it a lot better if I had been able to do that discreetly and subsequently rectified that.
Whether it is in a parking lot or at gas pumps, I am averse to being approached as in my experience they are going to ask for money; I don't want to sign a petition or hear about the cause in a parking lot either. One time it was a female, 20 something (methy looking); she asked for money but kept her distance, notably different than males.

Walking my dogs, I stay away from anyone with a dog; our dogs are not going to meet. If someone is walking and comments on my dogs, I may or may not offer to let them pet the dog based on their (the person's) appearance / demeanor. Yesterday, I'm walking the dogs and see a guy I've never seen before, he has a tall beer in a brown sack at 9AM. He starts cutting across the street and asks if my dogs are friendly. Ugh, "No, not really" as I keep walking. I wasn't the only one that didn't like the look of the guy; my Bullmastiff is very stranger friendly and I usually let people pet him, he is laid back. In this case however, the Bullmastiff twice turned around and checked our (his) six, something he never does.

 

[The Night Rider]

But it is by no means uncommon behavior,

You do know that things that are abnormal are by definition uncommon right?

Walking my dogs, I stay away from anyone with a dog; our dogs are not going to meet. If someone is walking and comments on my dogs, I may or may not offer to let them pet the dog based on their (the person's) appearance / demeanor. Yesterday, I'm walking the dogs and see a guy I've never seen before, he has a tall beer in a brown sack at 9AM. He starts cutting across the street and asks if my dogs are friendly. Ugh, "No, not really" as I keep walking. I wasn't the only one that didn't like the look of the guy; my Bullmastiff is very stranger friendly and I usually let people pet him, he is laid back. In this case however, the Bullmastiff twice turned around and checked our (his) six, something he never does.

I no longer have dogs but the rule was when I did if I don't know you and you asked me if my dogs are friendly they're not. I don't care if the dog is rolled over and offered his belly "No he's not friendly. He'll chew your leg off. Stay away from my dog."

Somewhat off topic: one of my pet peeves is when I'm on the trail and somebody's Unleashed dog comes running up to me and while I'm making friends the owner shows up and says "Oh we don't like people interacting with our dog." Well, then put your damn dog on a leash.

 

[Kleanbore]

You do know that things that are abnormal are by definition uncommon right?

If the reverse is true, then your assessment RE: wrong is just plain wrong.

It is no way uncommon for "a random stranger to attempt to engage you in conversation" or for "someone you don't know to attempt to interact with you beyond common courtesies".

 

[WrongHanded]

It is no way uncommon for "a random stranger to attempt to engage you in conversation" or for "someone you don't know to attempt to interact with you beyond common courtesies".

Not uncommon for you maybe. It's absolutely, positively, definitely uncommon for me. Lifestyle plays a large part in how common such an event is to an individual. As does physical appearance and general demeanor. Some people are less "approachable" than others.

General statements are often applicable, but perhaps not in this case.

 

[fastbolt]

I didn't know you could wash it off. I've been retired several years and still get "made" by people with experience in the criminal justice system.


My wife likes my goatee too much, she would be disappointed if I shaved it off. I really think getting "made" has more to do with your mannerisms and how you carry yourself....

Yep. The gentle, good-natured people who don't wish to acknowledge being somewhat intimidated by some types of facial hair are seemingly the same who don't look much deeper than outward appearances.

Those who have had experience with the wrong side of the criminal justice system seem to look beyond outward appearance and see the 'set' of someone who makes/made their living keeping the peace.

 

[fastbolt]

I didn't know you could wash it off. I've been retired several years and still get "made" by people with experience in the criminal justice system.

My wife likes my goatee too much, she would be disappointed if I shaved it off. I really think getting "made" has more to do with your mannerisms and how you carry yourself....

FWIW, my wife thinks it's funny how I've started to look 'more approachable' to some people, knowing me as well as she's come to know me since '74.

 

[citizenconn]

My wife, and several men and women at my cigar club who have never seen me without a long mustache (or goatee), also commented on how 'approachable' and non-intimidating I appeared without facial hair.

Ha, that's exactly why I have grown a very long goatee and layered beard, to be less approachable to the baddies here in the Houston area. Not a lot of panhandlers or grifters approach me anymore.

You are exactly correct regarding how people's perceptions of you can change significantly based on facial hair (or dress or other innocuous things).

 

[Smokin Gator]

Abnormal is not the same as uncommon. There is a negative connotation to abnormal.

Abnormal defenition:

deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying.
"the illness is recognizable from the patient's abnormal behavior"

 

[fastbolt]

Ha, that's exactly why I have grown a very long goatee and layered beard, to be less approachable to the baddies here in the Houston area. Not a lot of panhandlers or grifters approach me anymore.

You are exactly correct regarding how people's perceptions of you can change significantly based on facial hair (or dress or other innocuous things).

Since I only shaved it off to 'reboot' uniformity of growth and length, it immediately started growing back. After not quite a couple of weeks, when I was at my club one evening, guys were already commenting on how they liked I was growing my mustache and goatee back. Men commenting on the personal grooming standards of other men has always struck me funny. Comfortable bunch of guys, though.

When I was working I always wished I could grow a goatee or beard, but our agency had grooming standards. It didn't take long for someone who grew their mustache longer so that the ends dropped below the commissures of their mouths to be told to shorten the ends. I was always getting warned about it, and told that beards, goatees and handlebar mustaches looked "unprofessional". When I pointed out that some judges had such facial hair grooming habits, and asked if it made them look unprofessional, it fell on deaf ears.

Would growing beards, goatees and handlebar mustaches make working LE look too 'intimidating' to the Public, at large? Remind them too much of Western 'grooming' of a century or more ago? Dunno. People can be funny about such things, though.

There are certainly some interesting 'personal grooming standards' in America that seem a bit odd, and overly restrictive when it comes to 'professional' grooming standards, when looking at other grooming standards that have been in existence around the world in different countries and cultures. Little wonder that in many ways Americans may be considered a bit 'uptight' in some ways.

It's also unsurprising that when men retire from a Public Safety career it's not unusual for them to relax their grooming for facial (and other) hair. Growing longer mustaches or goatees isn't at all unusual.

 

[JohnKSa]

My take on the shooting video is that the defender was heavily tasked and doing the best he could in the circumstances. He knew he had two attackers who had separated. Dealing with one put him almost with his back to the other. He was trying to insure that neither one was a threat by rapidly switching back and forth between them but without being able to spend time staring at either one of them to do a careful threat assessment because while he attended to one, he was extremely vulnerable to the other.

It seems clear to me that once he feels certain that the guy on the ground is out of it, he stops switching back to that guy and focuses exclusively on the attacker who retreated to cover.

In this situation, once he chose to leave cover and advance, he had no option but to keep two ping-pong balls under water at once and that meant acting very quickly, very decisively and maintaining that activity level until the threat was obviously over.

If there had been only one attacker, or if he could have easily seen both attackers at once, I might feel different about him putting more rounds into the guy on the ground, but as it was, it looks pretty good to me. The question is whether his decision to leave cover was a good one--it worked out for him, but it did put a lot on his plate for a few seconds.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Since I only shaved it off to 'reboot' uniformity of growth and length, it immediately started growing back. After not quite a couple of weeks, when I was at my club one evening, guys were already commenting on how they liked I was growing my mustache and goatee back. Men commenting on the personal grooming standards of other men has always struck me funny. Comfortable bunch of guys, though.

When I was working I always wished I could grow a goatee or beard, but our agency grooming standards. It didn't take long for someone who grew their mustache longer so that the ends dropped below the commissures of their mouths to be told to shorten the ends. I was always getting warned about it, and told that beards, goatees and handlebar mustaches looked "unprofessional". When I pointed out that some judges had such facial hair grooming habits, and asked if it made them look unprofessional, it fell on deaf ears.

Would growing beards, goatees and handlebar mustaches make working LE look too 'intimidating' to the Public, at large? Remind them too much of Western 'grooming' of a century or more ago? Dunno. People can be funny about such things, though.

There are certainly some interesting 'personal grooming standards' in America that seem a bit odd, and overly restrictive when it comes to 'professional' grooming standards, when looking at other grooming standards that have been in existence around the world in different countries and cultures. Little wonder that in many ways Americans may be considered a bit 'uptight' in some ways.

It's also unsurprising that when men retire from a Public Safety career it's not unusual for them to relax their grooming for facial (and other) hair. Growing longer mustaches or goatees isn't at all unusual.

bikerdoc of blessed memory grew a ponytail!

 

[redneck]

I just stumbled across the full bodycam footage of the hatchet attack. Thought you guys might like to see it.

The original vehicle stop was a teenage boy who rolled a stop sign. His insurance card was expired and the cop was trying to be nice and let him get a hold of his parents to come up with current proof of insurance. His first thought when the 2nd car pulled up was actually that the boys dad was bringing him an insurance card.

 

[scaatylobo]

For thoughts RE: training, preparedness, method of carry...

In the movies and on TV, violent encounters develop slowly--so the audiences don't miss anything. Also, one handgun shot, which would "blow your head clean off", effects the stop instantly, and blows the perp out of the saloon.

Forget it. See below for reality.

I suspect that most people will be amazed at how quickly the officer reacted--and at how fast he drew.

I think most people I know would likely have still been standing with their mouths open while receiving lethal blows from the hatchet.

Would you expect someone stopping next to you in a car to jump out and try to kill you without warning?

YES, this was an officer ------ BUT a perfect example of situational AWARENESS !.

Happy ending to what could have been a horrible day for anyone in law enforcement.

Love to shake the hand of that brother in Blue who was SPOT on that day.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Great video! On the topic of TV & films vs real life, the way gunshots are portrays departs wildly from reality. I was watching Sicario (one of my favorite films) and in virtually every instance where Medellín shoots someone with a 9mm handgun they instantly fall dead. John Wick has a propensity for headshots but again, nearly everyone he shoots dies instantly. On the other hand, the hero usually has incredible Level V plot armor allowing them to soak up an incredible amount of damage while remaining combat effective. From many surveillance videos and from hunting you never know what how the target will react to being shot. I do recall one video where an IPSC shooter working at a pawn shot killed a robber and he did go down like in a movie, like a sack of flour an never even twitched. But more often a wounded person runs off. Sometimes he dies in the parking lot, other time he gets away clean. There's a real X factor in actual violence that few people seem to appreciate. I think hunters understand it a bit better than your average person since they can see it with animals, too.

 

[Speedo66]

There was an incident in supermarket parking lot many years ago where a guy got out of his car and shot the parking lot attendant 7 times because the attendant wouldn't let him stay in a no standing area.

The attendant, a rather large fellow, beat the living crap out of the guy, and was later able to testify in court against him. Granted, it was a .25acp, but I still thought it was rather heroic.