Comparing Seating Depth of Three 9mm Bullet Brands

[Show Me]

May have missed something but it never dawned on me to not expect to adjust for different brands much less not recheck every time I sit down.
Good testing though.

 

[ballman6711]

Curious if you've weighed them yet. Different lengths may have different weights.

chris

 

[CQB45ACP]

May have missed something but it never dawned on me to not expect to adjust for different brands much less not recheck every time I sit down.
Good testing though.

Me either but just never measured and documented it. Just curious.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Curious if you've weighed them yet. Different lengths may have different weights.

chris

No. Hadn’t thought about it till now. Gee thanks Chris.

 

[LiveLife]

Curious if you've weighed them yet. Different lengths may have different weights.

No. Hadn’t thought about it till now. Gee thanks

My reloading/match shooting mentor was a seasoned bullseye match shooter and he would sort bullets by weight and shave the lead base of FMJ bullets for exact bullet weight match (He was producing 50 yard groups smaller than my 25 yard groups where I struggled to make 2" groups )

If you want smaller groups, reloading variables consistency is key, including bullet weight. For my shooting and casual plinking, bullet weight variance of 1.0 gr is good enough and "match grade" but RMR's 115 gr FMJ weight variance of less than 0.5 gr is awesome and "ELEY match grade".

For my USPSA match shooting in the 90s, Montana Gold jacketed bullets were used for consistency in bullet weight/length but now I use RMR in-house jacketed bullets as my reference bullets. While MG jacketed bullet weight variance was less than 1.0 gr, RMR jacketed bullet weight variance is less than 0.5 gr with greater consistency in bullet length/nose profile/ogive. I do believe these factors were the reason why ELEY chose to use RMR for their centerfire match ammunition of 9mm minor/major/PCC - https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/9mm-ammo-c19

BTW, here's Guns America review article of RMR bullet weight variance - https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/rmr-9mm-124-jhp-mpr-review/

"... important variable is bullet weight ... I weighed the 20 bullets. Four bullets weighed 123.9 grains, three bullets weighed 124.0, nine bullets weighed 124.1, and 3 bullets weighed 124.2. That is a spread of .3 of a grain overall."​

 

[ballman6711]

No. Hadn’t thought about it till now. Gee thanks Chris.

You're very welcome sir! Let me know if you need any other suggestions.

chris

 

[ballman6711]

and shave the lead base of FMJ bullets for exact bullet weight match

@CQB45ACP Now you need a belt sander!

chris

 

[ray15]

@CQB45ACP Now you need a belt sander!

chris

Better go with a vertical mill. Hard to keep the base truly perpendicular to the bore axis with a belt sander.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

No. Hadn’t thought about it till now. Gee thanks Chris.

You might also want to check the shape of the nose (ogive). Something like an egg candler ought to work well enough for observation. Difference in the shape can change the way the seating stem works.

 

[jmorris]

If I adjust seater to 1.135" that's what I want. Not just close.

Only if the bullets themselves are identical. If their length is different, like these SMK's for example and I seated them to the same OAL, that would create much more variation between rounds. Jump to lands, capacity in the case, vs an extra .005" of jacket material on the tip.



Even your seater doesn't care about OAL being the same, it's seating off the ogive.

Probably not as low as this but if I measure those two different OAL bullets above, from the base to a datum along the ogive, they are now identical. So, I forget about OAL other than the longest still has to fit the mag and function in the firearm.



If you really want to see if you have a problem with your process, take all of the above you measured, remove the seating stem from the die you seated the bullets with and measure them again.



Now, how much do they vary? If your "problem" just went away, fluff up the pillow for a good nights sleep.

 

[ray15]

Only if the bullets themselves are identical. If their length is different, like these SMK's for example and I seated them to the same OAL, that would create much more variation between rounds. Jump to lands, capacity in the case, vs an extra .005" of jacket material on the tip.

While all valid and technically correct, your perspective is very precision rifle-centric. You need to control the jump to lands very closely to achieve a degree of precision that although desirable is overkill for most pistol users and application. I also think it gets harder to control the overall length of the projectile as it gets more elongated, making ogive measurement mandatory. The OP is talking about 115gr. RN 9mm projectiles, with controlling feeding reliability being his perspective moreso than 500 yard accuracy.

And although it's much ado about nothing from my view, there are projectiles that stack up better by his criteria. As I posted earlier in this thread I pulled 10 Berry's 9mm 115gr. plated RN from my collection and measured them up, and they varied only a thousandth and a half base to tip. I gave just a little over 7 cents a piece for them. So if he sees it as a problem and wishes more consistent dimensions, a simple matter of bullet choice can essentially eliminate the concern. I don't have a good way to check the ogive on these, but I'm willing to bet with the degree of accuracy I can easily measure they are consistent there too.

 

[LV Gun]

I try to stay with the same brand of bullet if possible so as to avoid what is being discussed. I always have 95 to 100% of the driving band in the case I was taught this years ago by a competition shooter and I have seen it on a bullet manufacturer website but can’t remember who it was for the life of me. By doing it this way I rarely ever measure length unless I am using the exact same bullet that is in the load data and this has worked well for me for years. It may not be for everyone though.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Only if the bullets themselves are identical. If their length is different, like these SMK's for example and I seated them to the same OAL, that would create much more variation between rounds. Jump to lands, capacity in the case, vs an extra .005" of jacket material on the tip.

View attachment 1229126View attachment 1229127

Even your seater doesn't care about OAL being the same, it's seating off the ogive.

Probably not as low as this but if I measure those two different OAL bullets above, from the base to a datum along the ogive, they are now identical. So, I forget about OAL other than the longest still has to fit the mag and function in the firearm.

View attachment 1229128

If you really want to see if you have a problem with your process, take all of the above you measured, remove the seating stem from the die you seated the bullets with and measure them again.

View attachment 1229129

Now, how much do they vary? If your "problem" just went away, fluff up the pillow for a good nights sleep.

I am going to try this--removing the stem & measuring. Thanks. Good thing I'm not worried about any of this though cause I am beginning to worry my pillow's not up to it.

Edit: I now recall going through all this with my 45acp 230gr RN and final result was the jbwelded stem.

Edit, edit: I did try it and rounds were more consistent for sure. Problem is of course, as I seat a bullet I can't disassemble the die and measure

 

[CQB45ACP]

While all valid and technically correct, your perspective is very precision rifle-centric. You need to control the jump to lands very closely to achieve a degree of precision that although desirable is overkill for most pistol users and application. I also think it gets harder to control the overall length of the projectile as it gets more elongated, making ogive measurement mandatory. The OP is talking about 115gr. RN 9mm projectiles, with controlling feeding reliability being his perspective moreso than 500 yard accuracy.

And although it's much ado about nothing from my view, there are projectiles that stack up better by his criteria. As I posted earlier in this thread I pulled 10 Berry's 9mm 115gr. plated RN from my collection and measured them up, and they varied only a thousandth and a half base to tip. I gave just a little over 7 cents a piece for them. So if he sees it as a problem and wishes more consistent dimensions, a simple matter of bullet choice can essentially eliminate the concern. I don't have a good way to check the ogive on these, but I'm willing to bet with the degree of accuracy I can easily measure they are consistent there too.

Thanks. This is simply an exercise in curiosity or at least that's how it began

 

[CQB45ACP]

I try to stay with the same brand of bullet if possible so as to avoid what is being discussed. I always have 95 to 100% of the driving band in the case I was taught this years ago by a competition shooter and I have seen it on a bullet manufacturer website but can’t remember who it was for the life of me. By doing it this way I rarely ever measure length unless I am using the exact same bullet that is in the load data and this has worked well for me for years. It may not be for everyone though.

I too tend to stay with a brand for several thousand at least. Just happened to be in a transition period and tested the difference. Kinda wish I hadn't

 

[LiveLife]

I have three different brands of 9mm 115gr RN none of which are consistent enough in size/shape/profile/whatever (even within own brand) to simply adjust the seater and forget it ... 1.135" that's what I want.

I too tend to stay with a brand for several thousand at least. Just happened to be in a transition period and tested the difference. Kinda wish I hadn't

There may be a simpler solution to your problem - Use shorter OAL.

I normally use 1.130" - 1.135" OAL for 115 gr FMJ and plated RN bullets as my 9mm reference load using 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38. Why 1.130" - 1.135"? Because that's the average variation I see from differing bullet lengths/nose profile/ogive loaded with Lee dies. And depending on the headstamp brass I use, I do not get bullet setback when fed from the magazine indicating good neck tension for more consistent chamber pressures and accuracy.

But with pulled 115 gr bullets from RMR that included different makes of plated and jacketed bullets, seating them deeper to 1.110" OAL eliminated bullet setback (Due to thicker case wall further towards case base) and improved accuracy. I believe this is reason why Atlanta Arms reduced OAL for their most accurate 9mm 115 gr FMJ Match AMU (1.5" 50 yard groups) from 1.130" down to 1.110" - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html

My reference load of 115 gr FMJ/plated RN at 1.130"-1.135" with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 will produce around 3" groups at 25 yards out of Glock 22 with KKM/BCA/Lone Wolf/Tactical Kinetics 40-9mm conversion barrels.

If you want smaller groups than reference load (Which is comparable to Winchester/Federal white box performance), use different powders like Titegroup, Bullseye, WST, BE-86, WSF.

These groups were shot with regular Berry's plated bullets (Notice longer OAL but Berry's larger sized .356" and 124 bullet with longer bullet base produced good neck tension) at 25 yards and increasing powder charge of Titegroup reduced group size from 3" to 2" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?attachments/rmr-9mm-124-wst-be-86-jpg.204138/

If you want even smaller groups, consider Bullseye/WST/BE-86. These groups were shot with RMR thick plated bullets sized larger at .3565" made for them (No longer produced after they started making in-house jacketed bullets) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

 

[CQB45ACP]

There may be a simpler solution to your problem - Use shorter OAL.

I normally use 1.130" - 1.135" OAL for 115 gr FMJ and plated RN bullets as my 9mm reference load using 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38. Why 1.130" - 1.135"? Because that's the average variation I see from differing bullet lengths/nose profile/ogive loaded with Lee dies. And depending on the headstamp brass I use, I do not get bullet setback when fed from the magazine indicating good neck tension for more consistent chamber pressures and accuracy.

But with pulled 115 gr bullets from RMR that included different makes of plated and jacketed bullets, seating them deeper to 1.110" OAL eliminated bullet setback (Due to thicker case wall further towards case base) and improved accuracy. I believe this is reason why Atlanta Arms reduced OAL for their most accurate 9mm 115 gr FMJ Match AMU (1.5" 50 yard groups) from 1.130" down to 1.110" - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html

My reference load of 115 gr FMJ/plated RN at 1.130"-1.135" with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 will produce around 3" groups at 25 yards out of Glock 22 with KKM/BCA/Lone Wolf/Tactical Kinetics 40-9mm conversion barrels.

If you want smaller groups than reference load (Which is comparable to Winchester/Federal white box performance), use different powders like Titegroup, Bullseye, WST, BE-86, WSF.

These groups were shot with regular Berry's plated bullets (Notice longer OAL but Berry's larger sized .356" and 124 bullet with longer bullet base produced good neck tension) at 25 yards and increasing powder charge of Titegroup reduced group size from 3" to 2".

If you want even smaller groups, consider Bullseye/WST/BE-86. These groups were shot with RMR thick plated bullets sized larger at .3565" made for them (No longer produced after they started making in-house jacketed bullets) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?attachments/rmr-9mm-124-wst-be-86-jpg.204138/

Thanks for the help. But I don't actually have a problem nor am I worried about this...it's an annoyance at worst. A curiosity. I do appreciate the effort (and pics).

But regardless, I build for chambering reliability and after several years trial and error, as I said above, I am in the 1.135-1.130" range. That's what my 1911s & Berettas like and of course their mags. I'll stick with it.

 

[LiveLife]

I build for chambering reliability and after several years trial and error, as I said above, I am in the 1.135-1.130" range. That's what my 1911s & Berettas like and of course their mags. I'll stick with it.

I agree. I have to load for multiple pistols that my fishing buddies bring when we go shooting and 115 gr FMJ/plated RN loaded to 1.130" - 1.135" OAL reliably feed in all of their pistols.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I agree. I have to load for multiple pistols that my fishing buddies bring when we go shooting and 115 gr FMJ/plated RN loaded to 1.130" - 1.135" OAL reliably feed in all of their pistols.

You shoot fish? In a barrel?

one of my mags/pistol combo was so finicky I swapped it with a non-reloading friend simply to avoid the hassle and uncertainty. Swapped the mag that is.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Like I did with a 45acp stem shown in earlier picture, here's some JBWeld in a Redding 9mm seating stem.

In several hours after it partially sets up, I'll drop it in the die and raise a dummy round to gently press/squeeze in a bullet tip impression.

Don't panic, I can afford a new stem if I screw up.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Thanks. This is simply an exercise in curiosity or at least that's how it began

It’s better than the umpteenth discussion of how close to a catastrophic failure of the firearm a person can load and why the manuals are so far below that point.

 

[LiveLife]

You shoot fish? In a barrel?

No, salt water fishing with Chris-Craft 18' center console for Rock Fish/Ling Cod in 50'-100' deep water near coast, trolling for King salmon with two Cannon down riggers and Halibut in 200' deep water several miles out.

I have been restoring aluminum 21' Starcraft with Berkeley jet drive and 18' Starcraft with outboard but my spinal stenosis is getting to the point where riding pounding ocean wave may force me to give up salt water fishing.

 

[CQB45ACP]

No, salt water fishing with Chris-Craft 18' center console for Rock Fish/Ling Cod in 50'-100' deep water near coast, trolling for King salmon with two Cannon down riggers and Halibut in 200' deep water several miles out.

I have been restoring aluminum 21' Starcraft with Berkeley jet drive and 18' Starcraft with outboard but my spinal stenosis is getting to the point where riding pounding ocean wave may force me to give up salt water fishing.

Sorry bout your ailment but I LOVE fish tales, esp deep water!!!

And, Rockfish is my favorite but I'm talking about mid-Atlantic...Chesapeake, Lower Potomac. Not deep water although Potomac will get 100'. Unfortunately, you know which fish has highest mercury concentration? Yep. But takes 20 years to feel effects. I'll be 93.

Not sure I'd be too comfortable in 200' water in an 21' boat and I'm not talking about my back.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Sorry bout your ailment but I LOVE fish tales, esp deep water!!!

And, Rockfish is my favorite but I'm talking about mid-Atlantic...Chesapeake, Lower Potomac. Not deep water although Potomac will get 100'. Unfortunately, you know which fish has highest mercury concentration? Yep. But takes 20 years to feel effects. I'll be 93.

Not sure I'd be too comfortable in 200' water in an 21' boat and I'm not talking about my back.

I love fishing the Straits but it’s not the cheap hobby it used to be. Too much tourism and regulation these days. Back when we carried a couple of M1 carbine on the boat to discourage sharks. They know what a fishing boat is and where to find an easy meal. Shoot one then motor off a few hundred yards and you can fish for hours without losing your line. I’m pretty sure that’s illegal now. Everyone is into C&R and they treat you badly if you have a live well.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I love fishing the Straits but it’s not the cheap hobby it used to be. Too much tourism and regulation these days. Back when we carried a couple of M1 carbine on the boat to discourage sharks. They know what a fishing boat is and where to find an easy meal. Shoot one then motor off a few hundred yards and you can fish for hours without losing your line. I’m pretty sure that’s illegal now. Everyone is into C&R and they treat you badly if you have a live well.

Nothing approaches Fla gulf fishing. Well maybe elsewhere in Caribbean/Gulf. But that water.