Comparing Seating Depth of Three 9mm Bullet Brands

[LiveLife]

Unfortunately, you know which fish has highest mercury concentration?

Not sure I'd be too comfortable in 200' water in an 21' boat and I'm not talking about my back.

Part of the reason why we chose this area for retirement was un-dammed flow of several rivers creating a clean water buffer zone with ocean currents. So bottom feeding fish near mouths of rivers like Rock fish/Ling Cod have low contamination levels for eating (We have fishermen from SF area trailering their boats all the way up here because they cannot eat the fish caught there due to contamination).

Many fishermen in the area will go out several miles in their small boats to 200' for Halibut where you can see two distinct salinity waters separated (almost like oil/water separation). My sea-legs are wobbly so I prefer to hug the coastline around 50'-100' depth for Rock Fish and Ling Cod which wife and I both like, especially beer battered. I can troll for Salmon in same depth of water before they enter the rivers (When they do, we fish off the river).

Nothing approaches Fla gulf fishing. Well maybe elsewhere in Caribbean/Gulf. But that water.

Florida was one of many retirement destinations for us but I have aging parents in their late 70s in Oregon so we are staying in the area for them until they pass.

OK, back to OP - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-three-9mm-bullet-brands.934086/post-12985889

 

[jmorris]

Like I did with a 45acp stem shown in earlier picture, here's some JBWeld in a Redding 9mm seating stem.

But is that any better?

Seating bullets of different lengths to the same OAL, just makes the bases of the bullets all wind up at different locations.

I did try it and rounds were more consistent for sure. Problem is of course, as I seat a bullet I can't disassemble the die and measure

You don't have to, you just need something that measures from a datum along the ogive, like above.

 

[lordpaxman]

Have you tried uniforming the primer pockets before seating the bullets? I’ve heard certain people are meticulous about that…

When I was reloading on my LNL there’d be a small variation in COL if all stations weren’t filled. I can’t see that happening on a turret, although there might be some play that might translate to a COL difference. The other variable is the CBLF stroking the handle. You can get variations depending on how fast/how hard/how slow/how soft that happens. Even with the same HS.

You ought to invest in that Mark VII with auto drive and take you out of the equation.

 

[Blue68f100]

I have been restoring aluminum 21' Starcraft with Berkeley jet drive and 18' Starcraft with outboard but my spinal stenosis is getting to the point where riding pounding ocean wave may force me to give up salt water fishing.

Maybe time to add a air ride seat to your boat to absorb the impact. I'm going to be forced to replace the seat on my lawnmower to one before long.

 

[jmorris]

While all valid and technically correct, your perspective is very precision rifle-centric.

Just because most people can't shoot a normal pistol accurate enough to bother doesn't change correct things, it probably should make them worry less about incorrect or inconsistent things though.



That said, if one is looking for more accuracy, I can already tell they are going in the wrong direction if they are using plated bullets. They are not known for their accuracy.

Sometimes I waste my time too though...

The OP is talking about 115gr. RN 9mm projectiles, with controlling feeding reliability being his perspective

Seems to me like he's just playing around.

But I don't actually have a problem nor am I worried about this...

He just doesn't worry about things differently than I do.

 

[CQB45ACP]

But is that any better?

Seating bullets of different lengths to the same OAL, just makes the bases of the bullets all wind up at different locations.



You don't have to, you just need something that measures from a datum along the ogive, like above.

But is it worse? Variations are still only .005ish.

Have you tried uniforming the primer pockets before seating the bullets? I’ve heard certain people are meticulous about that…

When I was reloading on my LNL there’d be a small variation in COL if all stations weren’t filled. I can’t see that happening on a turret, although there might be some play that might translate to a COL difference. The other variable is the CBLF stroking the handle. You can get variations depending on how fast/how hard/how slow/how soft that happens. Even with the same HS.

You ought to invest in that Mark VII with auto drive and take you out of the equation.

Never heard of that before, I'll give it a try

This (maybe all?) T-7 has a virtually imperceptible play/flex and I've tried unsuccessfully to get different anything by varying speed/pressure stroking the handle. Now dropping powder on a Uniflow I agree, but not seating a bullet on what is essentially a SS.

 

[LiveLife]

Maybe time to add a air ride seat to your boat to absorb the impact. I'm going to be forced to replace the seat on my lawnmower to one before long.

I got 3 brand new Polaris RZR seats for 21' Starcraft for fully supported ride through the waves but problem is when I am not in the seat as back spasm can happen even when I am standing steady.

I chose the wrong parents as Neuro Surgeon pointed out in the MRI images that bone growth protrusion is such that my condition is inoperable (My mother's condition was operable and she is doing fine). I have accepted my destiny/fate and glad that I grew up riding dirt bikes and spent past 30 years of marriage riding quads and dune buggies with family and my dream of retiring at Coos Bay/Winchester Bay, Oregon riding around largest coastal sand dunes on west coast in modified long-travel suspension Baja with Subaru engine pushed to 200+ HP can be let go. < Crossing sky diving off the bucket list >

So, choose your parents carefully and "Live Life" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-gun-itch.932736/post-12984501

OK, back to OP.

 

[jmorris]

But is it worse? Variations are still only .005ish.

Speer had some data on seating depth of an unknown combination.



.030" changed pressure from 28,000 CUP to 62,000 CUP. Thats a 34,000 cup swing for .030".

If the bullets are different lengths but you seat by the ogive, where they measure the same. The base of all the bullets will be in the same spot but the base to tip measurements will be as different as the bullets themselves are.

If the bullets are different lengths but you seat them to all the same OAL, where the base of the bullets wind up will vary as much as the bullets do.

If you can't tell, you can't tell but pressure is going to vary MORE with what you are doing than of you left the inconsistency outside of the case, at the tip of the bullet.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Just because most people can't shoot a normal pistol accurate enough to bother doesn't change correct things, it probably should make them worry less about incorrect or inconsistent things though.

View attachment 1229146

That said, if one is looking for more accuracy, I can already tell they are going in the wrong direction if they are using plated bullets. They are not known for their accuracy.

Sometimes I waste my time too though...



Seems to me like he's just playing around.



He just doesn't worry about things differently than I do.

I'm not worried, but not playing either.

A minor annoyance that I can see grows over time to be major. Perhaps altering the stem is simply concealing the variance or transferring it elsewhere out-of-sight, but so be it.

To address the variance when seating via bullet tip vs. ogive, maybe I'll sort bullets by length. So wouldn't all .557" bullets have the ogive in the same place? And then seating by tip would push the base to the same depth.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Speer had some data on seating depth of an unknown combination.

View attachment 1229151

.030" changed pressure from 28,000 CUP to 62,000 CUP. Thats a 34,000 cup swing for .030".

If the bullets are different lengths but you seat by the ogive, where they measure the same. The base of all the bullets will be in the same spot but the base to tip measurements will be as different as the bullets themselves are.

If the bullets are different lengths but you seat them to all the same OAL, where the base of the bullets wind up will vary as much as the bullets do.

If you can't tell, you can't tell but pressure is going to vary MORE with what you are doing than of you left the inconsistency outside of the case, at the tip of the bullet.

Yes I've read this before and Lee's similar discussion. Big difference .005" v .030"

 

[jmorris]

To address the variance when seating via bullet tip vs. ogive, maybe I'll sort bullets by length. So wouldn't all .557" bullets have the ogive in the same place? And then seating by tip would push the base to the same depth.

Yes, for that matter, all of the ones you seated before you jbwelded the seating stem could be sorted right now by OAL and will have the same OAL....

 

[ballman6711]

But is it worse? Variations are still only .005ish.

Interesting question. If the base of the bullet is seated to different depths then the ammo will be less consistent. If you're loading to the middle of the load range, then .005" won't matter as far as pressure is concerned, but if you're loading at max that same variation can make a big difference, might even be dangerous.

My question to you is can you shoot the difference with a .005" COL variation? If not, then it's a moot point. I understand the concern if the COL affects function, otherwise I wouldn't be concerned with it. Just my $.02

chris

 

[jmorris]

Yes I've read this before and Lee's similar discussion. Big difference .005" v .030"

Yes .025" but 34,000 cup is also a big difference (max for their data is 35,700cup). 34,000 / 30 = 1133 cup per .001".

.005 x 1133 = 5666.6 cup. In the unlikely event you happen to have the same combination they were testing to get those figures...

 

[ballman6711]

So wouldn't all .557" bullets have the ogive in the same place?

In theory yes, in reality it depends on the bullet maker and the mold the bullet came out of.

chris

 

[LiveLife]

.030" changed pressure from 28,000 CUP to 62,000 CUP. Thats a 34,000 cup swing for .030".

If the bullets are different lengths but you seat by the ogive, that measure the same. The base of all the bullets will be in the same spot but the base to tip measurements will be as different as the bullets themselves are.

If the bullets are different lengths but you seat them to all the same OAL, the base of the bullets will vary as much as the bullets do.

But is it worse? Variations are still only .005ish.

Big difference .005" v .030"

Possible when you "tolerance stack" bullet setback to bullet seating depth variation. And you won't know bullet experienced setback because the round is chambered ...

That's why I am OCD about bullet setback and prefer no bullet setback on my rounds to produce more consistent pressures. And if you are loading at near max/max load data and bullet experiences significant bullet setback, especially with mixed range brass with unknown reload history (Ahem, 9mm Major brass with overly expanded case base/web area ... think thinned/weakened), you could go over pressure and experience case wall failure/base blowout/KaBoom.

This OAL/Pressure chart shows reduction of .050" in OAL could increase pressure by 4000 PSI using Zip (Similar burn rate powder as W231/HP-38).

 

[jmorris]

This (maybe all?) T-7 has a virtually imperceptible play/flex

This may be a direction worth looking into. It's imperceptible because you haven't measured it. Maybe you just need to put the calipers back in the box and check your rounds, pass/fail with a case gauge. Then your OAL differences will be imperceptible too.

Turret movement on a Lyman turret press.

www.youtube.com

 

[CQB45ACP]

This may be a direction worth looking into. It's imperceptible because you haven't measured it. Maybe you just need to put the calipers back in the box and check your rounds, pass/fail with a case gauge. Then your OAL differences will be imperceptible too.

Turret movement on a Lyman turret press.

www.youtube.com

Now you're being snippy. Sure that's not you intent though

Out of curiosity, I'm looking right now at Alliant's data for 9mm & Sport Pistol. OALs for similar bullets are all over the place. Wonder if they used calipers?

 

[LiveLife]

Interesting question. If the base of the bullet is seated to different depths then the ammo will be less consistent. If you're loading to the middle of the load range, then .005" won't matter as far as pressure is concerned

Yes, essentially we are all loading "middle of the road" pressure-wise due to many reloading variables that affect chamber pressure:

• OAL/bullet seating depth variance
• Bullet length/nose profile/ogive variance
• Powder charge variance
• Case wall thickness/neck tension variance
• Bullet setback
• Mixed range brass/work hardening brass condition variance
• Overly expanded case wall/internal case volume variance
• And others

So while we try to reduce these reloading variables, there will still exist certain amount of variations to produce differing chamber pressures to affect muzzle velocities and SD numbers that will lead to holes on target.

I see many reloaders sweat the details regarding bullet and OAL consistency but won't check brass wall thickness consistency or bullet setback fed from the magazine slammed on feed ramp by the slide.

For me, finished OAL or bullet seating depth consistency is irrelevant if bullet setback/chambered OAL is not checked as significant bullet setback can overshadow all other reloading variables pressure-wise and prefer no bullet setback of my rounds.

 

[jmorris]

I was not trying to be snippy but if you don't worry about things you don't measure and you have no problems currently, is there harm in not adding the other work and mental distraction?

That goes for your equipment and/or your ammunition.

I have shot more than 250,000 berry's bullets in the last 2 decades, almost all of them never had a caliper blade touch them. Almost all were casegauged though.

 

[Howa 9700]

This may be applicable or not, but gets to heart of the OP.......the original post.

Did a little test to see just what would happen if I seated different bullets with same setting on the seating die. Changed nothing but the bullet.

What I found was despite nose profile and OAL, where the base of the bullet wound up inside the case is remarkably similar. If seated further out, still good to go.

Purpose of this was to see if I could use load data from Sierra, Speer and Nosler for the RMR 124 gr Nukes. Concluded I could. And can use XTP load data for Precision Delta V1.

 

[jmorris]

OALs for similar bullets are all over the place.

That is the definition of similar though, resembling without being identical.

 

[CQB45ACP]

This may be applicable or not, but gets to heart of the OP.......the original post.

Did a little test to see just what would happen if I seated different bullets with same setting on the seating die. Changed nothing but the bullet.

What I found was despite nose profile and OAL, where the base of the bullet wound up inside the case is remarkably similar. If seated further out, still good to go.

Purpose of this was to see if I could use load data from Sierra, Speer and Nosler for the RMR 124 gr Nukes. Concluded I could. And can use XTP load data for Precision Delta V1.

View attachment 1229155

Thanks

I typically did the same thing—same brand bullet—I’d adjust once check only occasionally. Stayed close to the same. This time for once I had three brands (only a few of two) and wanted to compare.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I was not trying to be snippy but if you don't worry about things you don't measure and you have no problems currently, is there harm in not adding the other work and mental distraction?

That goes for your equipment and/or your ammunition.

I have shot more than 250,000 berry's bullets in the last 2 decades, almost all of them never had a caliper blade touch them. Almost all were casegauged though.

it was interesting to me and thought others might agree. That’s all

 

[LiveLife]

I typically do the same thing—same brand bullet—I adjust once check only occasionally. Stays remarkably the same. This time for once I had three brands (only a few of two) and wanted to compare.

And tossing another reloading variable ... bullet tilt during seating could affect OAL.

Are you using stepped "M" style expander or Lee stepped powder through expander?

When will this madness end?

 

[CQB45ACP]

And tossing another reloading variable ... bullet tilt during seating could affect OAL.

Are you using stepped "M" style expander or Lee stepped powder through expander?

When will this madness end?

Either/both Lee’s new M & Redding’s M when I expand and a Redding competition seater. Tilt is unlikely.