Compliance Is Certainly A Gamble

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Good Ol' Boy, Sep 18, 2022.

  1. SlimReaper67

    SlimReaper67 Member

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    I'm with this. Assuming he has the gun on you first, you "comply" and make an opening for yourself. You just need to have them lose focus for 1 second to draw and fire.
     
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  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    It is crical to keep in mind that the defender's objective is to avoid injury. Should it appear that he looked for an opprtunity to shoot unnecessarily, he will regret it.
     
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  3. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    I'm sure that your statement reflects your professional experience.

    However, I heard John say in this video that Kleck's research showed that 25% of fully compliant armed robbery victims are injured during the robbery. That statement piqued my interest, so I looked for studies on the subject, including those that Gary Kleck has published. Here's an excerpt from the abstract for one such study:

    "What happens when victims resist robbers? Logistic regression analysis of over 4500 sample robbery incidents reported in the 1979–1985 National Crime Surveys reveals the following about various forms of victim resistance.

    "Self-protection (SP) of any kind apparently reduces the probability of the robbery being completed, i.e., the robber getting away with the victim's property. Armed resistance is more effective than unarmed resistance, and resistance with a gun, though relatively rare, is the most effective victim response of all. Resistance with a gun also appears to reduce the likelihood of the victim being injured, while two types of resistance appear to increase it: (1) unarmed physical force against the robber and (2) trying to get help, attract attention, or scare the robber away."
    (emphasis added)

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226581805_Victim_resistance_and_offender_weapon_effects_in_robbery


    A more recent survey analyzed and published by Kleck found that:

    "...guns of all types were used substantially more often defensively than criminally and that gun-wielding civilians in self-defense or some other legally justified cause killed between 1,500 and 2,800 felons annually. The view that potential crime victims run a greater risk of injury if they are armed has been proven groundless. According to U.S. Justice Department victimization studies analyzed by Kleck, for both robbery and assault, victims who used guns for protection were less likely either to be attacked or injured than victims who responded in any other way, including those who did not resist at all; and victims who resisted robbers with guns were less likely to lose their property..." (emphasis added)

    https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/gun-ownership-provides-effective-self-defense-gun-control-p-142-149


    There are more studies on this topic that are available. The WWW is a wonderful thing.



    This statement being true, then the data suggests that reasonable defenders should be prepared to resist robberies and assaults with a gun in order to reduce their risk of injury. That conclusion is a big deal in my mind!

    If, as the OP proposes, "compliance is a gamble", then I want to have the odds in my favor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2022
  4. Mk VII

    Mk VII Member

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    Another example was Alan Bray, a gunstore owner in England in 1987 who was tied up and set on fire with gasoline before they left.
     
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  5. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    If you're being held at gunpoint, what exactly is "looking for an opportunity to shoot unnecessarily"? Seems like looking for an opportunity to stop someone holding you at gunpoint would be the essence of "avoiding injury".

    Outside of your attacker completely disengaging and running away, maybe you could break your reply down for the rest of us.
     
  6. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Drawing on a drawn gun is often suicidal. I learned this lesson as a boy. My father was a bus driver for Bi-State Development in the St Louis Metro Area. In the mid 1960s they had fair boxes that made change. Bus drivers began being targeted for armed robberies. A friend of my dad's who I knew from visiting our house took to carrying a pistol, one day in East St Louis two armed robbers got on his bus. My dad's friend drew his own gun and was shot dead in the driver's seat. I'm sure Kleanbore meant to look for an opening where you have a chance of succeeding. Of course there is the old mantra about being shot down with your own gun in it's holster. ;)
     
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  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, or if the robberr is over.
     
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  8. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    I feel like not everyone watched the video in the OP.

    Mr Kleanbores post said, and I'm quoting, "
    Should it appear that he looked for an opprtunity to shoot unnecessarily, he will regret it."

    I suggest everyone watch the video with excerpts and then reassess the above quote.

    You can die on your knees or go out fighting. That of course is your prerogative.

    The subject at hand is if you happen to get caught off guard, how to look for opportunities to not go out on your knees.
     
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  9. aaaaa

    aaaaa Member

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    That's what bugs me. About 5 minutes in they show the opportunity to shoot when the perp turns away from the cashier. I am thinking that would be taken as a shot in the back of a fleeing perp and the cashier would be charged with murder. Of course the store probably has video running, so it can be show the guy was not leaving. But maybe it happens somewhere else where there is no video recording. So I wonder should the cashier shoot him in the back at that point or level his gun and wait to see if the perp leaves or turns back around--that may be too late.
     
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  10. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    This idea is commonly expressed, but is incorrect.

    Even if a bad guy has a drawn gun, if he gives up the initiative ("by showing you his ear", or "by showing you the back of his head") and you seize it, it is physiologically impossible for him to beat your 1.5 or 2.0 second draw to first shot.

    John points this out regularly in ASP videos.

    But the advantage of initiative must be experienced to be understood. Most have not had this experience. Here's how I was taught this lesson:

    An instructor asked me to point my finger gun at his head. My job was to say "Bang!" when I saw him raise his finger gun from his side and "fire" at me.

    I knew his "attack" was coming. I was watching his hands carefully. Yet, every time, because he took the initiative, he could raise his finger gun and "fire" at me before I could see his hands move, process what I saw, and decide to say "Bang!"

    Try this with a friend. You'll experience the advantage of initiative firsthand.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/gunstore-owner-defends-against-armed-intruders.903881/#post-12261589
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2022
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  11. shafter

    shafter Member

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    Especially drawing from concealment which is significantly slower and prone to having a garment clearance issue. I might try from a duty holster but I'd be a lot more hesitant to try from concealment.
     
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  12. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    I suppose this is why citizen defenders should focus their practice on drawing their regular carry gun from their regular concealment holster under their regular cover garments.

    If their goal is to prepare for the kinds of attacks they might realistically face, they can't tolerate being a lot slower or having garment issues.

    In the past I've fallen into the trap of spending too much time practicing my drawstroke from OC rigs that are best suited for duty or competition. These rigs ARE faster. And being faster stroked my ego.

    But I'm not a cop, and I don't play the gun games. The only reason I carry a handgun is to protect myself and those I love from violent attack. I hope that it never does, but if the balloon ever goes up for me for real, I will always have to deploy that gun from concealment.

    So nowadays, I spend most of my practice time with a close analogue of my carry gun from everyday concealment.
     
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  13. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    you missed the point by a country mile. The quoted comment, which was made in response to a post about waiting for an opportunity, is extremely valid. the operative word is unnecessarily. The use of deadly force is not justified by a reasonable belief that an imminent treat had existed.

    That is the issue.

    I prefer other outcomes.
     
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  14. ClicheBro

    ClicheBro member

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    We're getting really sick of this.
     
  15. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Compliance is a tactic.

    The question is whether the victim sees it this way as well.

    When the bad guy(s) has the drop on you, it's already a horrible situation because the odds are greatly in favor of the bad guy(s). Every second is an opportunity to do something to help shift those odds a bit more to your own side. What those opportunities are and how to take advantage of them will vary tremendously.

    Personally, I'd like to say that if my time should come this way, I would hope it came with me fighting tooth and nail for every chance at survival.
     
  16. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    I can't see it, which is why I haven't specifically commented on it. It's blocked where I'm at, currently.

    Is this the one with the Hindi guy in a convenience store in Tupelo who compllied with everything the robber demanded, including getting down on his knees, and was shot in the back of his head for it?

    If so, then my first reaction when I first saw this shortly after it happened was "I'm NOT getting on my knees and allowing this guy out of my sight".

    How I would make that happen, I couldn't say as I wasn't the one there. But I'd endeavor never to allow myself to be placed in such a compromising situation unless it was a maneuver I thought I could work to a defensive advantage.
     
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  17. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    Correct.
     
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  18. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    That is the video in question.

    And I agree with your immediate thought of "theres no way I'm going out on my knees".

    Which is what this thread is "supposed " to be about. Looking for opportunities to stop the threat even if they initially got the drop on you. Literally the "fight like your life depended upon it" so many like to quote.

    Its extremely sad that there are those that would suggest you roll over and die because they're scared of the law in a lawless nation.

    Even though defending yourself in virtually any manner when being held at gunpoint is morally and legally justifiable.
     
  19. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I have never heard anyone suggest such.
     
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  20. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    and probably not behind bars now…
     
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  21. sisyphus

    sisyphus Member

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    I will always go under the assumption that trash human in sleep pants with extended Glock magazine does not train like I do.
    Dispatch with prejudice. If you lose, at least you went out defiant.
     
  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    that is not a lawful objective, and such posts can be very damaging,

    Terrible outcome.
     
  23. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Less terrible than participating in one's own execution.
     
  24. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Same outcome.
     
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  25. shafter

    shafter Member

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    It's a really bad mistake to assume that bad guys don't train or aren't skilled. At close range it doesn't really require any skill anyways, just quickness. If a bad guy has a gun out and yours is still under your shirt you're probably gonna take a round unless you can somehow acquire an edge.
     
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