Concealed Carry: Accuracy, Consistency, Range

[WrongHanded]

I wasn't quite sure how to approach this collection of thoughts I have surrounding concealed carry weapons, so bear with me. I would also like to state before I get into this that I do not believe I'm a good shot or particularly capable with any firearm. I consider myself to be merely competent.

Since I started reloading I've been able to shoot more. As a result my accuracy has improved. Or rather, my excuses as to why I "didn't get the groupings I was capable of" have disappeared. I'm more consistent, which depending on how it is viewed could be considered more accurate. I've also become acutely aware that a GP100 with a 6" barrel, adjustable sights, and a large grip does not yield the same results in my hands as a GP100 with a 3" barrel, fixed sights, and a compact grip (my usual carry gun). It's not that this was not a reasonable assumption before, but it was not quite so readily apparent until I started shooting regularly. So yes, practice is good. Practice with what you carry is also good.

And right about now, some of you may be thinking "Well, obviously!" And it is obvious. Except that it wasn't, until I started shooting more regularly and stopped making excuses for myself. And whilst I'm not suggesting everyone is in this same mental state about their abilities, I also don't believe I'm alone in having been somewhat wrapped up in a blanket of excuses and delusion about my abilities at punching holes in paper. Which is to say nothing of a self defense shooting situation.

So given the trend of smaller, lighter, more concealable guns being carried for self protection, my mind drifts to some questions of practicality. What sort of accuracy, consistency, and range do we really expect to achieve from these smaller guns? And how close to that do we come when we look at our shooting objectively? I know the answers are different for everyone. I certainly know I'm not where I'd like to be, and only now at the level I previously believed myself to be capable of (which isn't that great). Is hitting somewhere on a silhouette target at 7 yards acceptable? Or are 2" groups at 25 yards a goal to strive for? To a large extent this depends on what scenario we each feel we are likely to encounter, and at what distance. But I have definitely been asking myself more of these questions recently.

25 yards seems like a long way when you're balancing a bullseye on the top of a front sight down at the range. But out in the real world, 25 yards is the other side of the street. And considering that only hits count, and that as legally armed citizens we're all accountable for our misses as well as our hits, what's acceptable to you?

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

A full magazine or cylinder...regardless of capacity in a group the size of my fist at 5-15 yards as fast as I can press and reset the trigger and still accomplish that group. At 25 yards, a full magazine or cylinder...regardless of capacity in a group the size of a paper plate in the high center chest as fast as I can press and reset the trigger and still get those hits. The times at which this can be accomplished at those ranges will be different by necessity. You will not be able to get those hits at the same speed at 25 yards as you could at 5-15 yards.

A full magazine or cylinder regardless of capacity, and not a five shot group? - Some will ask. Yes, because whether you are firing one round, or 18 rounds, you are looking for consistent, repeatable results.

I don't care of you're carrying a KelTec 32, a J Frame snubby, a Glock 17, or pick a model...the mechanical accuracy potential of the gun is going to be far greater than the physical (skill) accuracy potential of the shooter. So, we look for a balance of accuracy and speed while still delivering effective shots on the target. It doesn't matter how quickly you miss because then you're just making noise and helping the guy who is trying to kill you accomplish his goal. However, if you get effective hits, at the best speed of which YOU are capable, then you are helping yourself not get killed.

The ability to put five shots into a tiny little cluster at 3-5-15-25 yards is all well and good when you have all the time in the world to have a gunfight with a paper target that isn't moving or shooting at you. My daughter could accomplish that with monotonous regularity when she was six. Add the totality of a dynamic critical incident, and the stresses involved, then a paper plate sized group as fast as you can press and reset the trigger is freakin awesome.

BUT...now the question you have to ask yourself is this: Can I deliver those hits while I am on the move, seeking cover, reloading, and doing all the things I may HAVE to do in the middle of a fight?

One thing I can promise, and this is from experience, is that your target will NOT be standing still and helping YOU kill them. You will not be in a fight with a B27 or an IPSC target. Your target will be actively trying to kill you, and so you need to add that reality into your thinking and training.

I have, for many years, taught my NON-LE students that they MUST be able to put a full magazine or cylinder, regardless of capacity, into a paper plate sized target in the high center chest at the longest distance they will shoot inside their home as fast as they can press and reset their trigger. This is the minimum level of skill they will "need" and once that is doable on demand, then more advanced skills will come into the regimen. They are then amazed at how soon they are able to do that with minimal professional training because a good teacher can impart those skills rapidly. I use it as a starting block to demonstrate that they CAN do it and it builds confidence and makes the next steps in training easier for them to accomplish.

 

[WrongHanded]

A full magazine or cylinder...regardless of capacity in a group the size of my fist at 5-15 yards as fast as I can press and reset the trigger and still accomplish that group. At 25 yards, a full magazine or cylinder...regardless of capacity in a group the size of a paper plate in the high center chest as fast as I can press and reset the trigger and still get those hits. The times at which this can be accomplished at those ranges will be different by necessity. You will not be able to get those hits at the same speed at 25 yards as you could at 5-15 yards.

A full magazine or cylinder regardless of capacity, and not a five shot group? - Some will ask. Yes, because whether you are firing one round, or 18 rounds, you are looking for consistent, repeatable results.

I don't care of you're carrying a KelTec 32, a J Frame snubby, a Glock 17, or pick a model...the mechanical accuracy potential of the gun is going to be far greater than the physical (skill) accuracy potential of the shooter. So, we look for a balance of accuracy and speed while still delivering effective shots on the target. It doesn't matter how quickly you miss because then you're just making noise and helping the guy who is trying to kill you accomplish his goal. However, if you get effective hits, at the best speed of which YOU are capable, then you are helping yourself not get killed.

The ability to put five shots into a tiny little cluster at 3-5-15-25 yards is all well and good when you have all the time in the world to have a gunfight with a paper target that isn't moving or shooting at you. My daughter could accomplish that with monotonous regularity when she was six. Add the totality of a dynamic critical incident, and the stresses involved, then a paper plate sized group as fast as you can press and reset the trigger is freakin awesome.

BUT...now the question you have to ask yourself is this: Can I deliver those hits while I am on the move, seeking cover, reloading, and doing all the things I may HAVE to do in the middle of a fight?

One thing I can promise, and this is from experience, is that your target will NOT be standing still and helping YOU kill them. You will not be in a fight with a B27 or an IPSC target. Your target will be actively trying to kill you, and so you need to add that reality into your thinking and training.

I have, for many years, taught my NON-LE students that they MUST be able to put a full magazine or cylinder, regardless of capacity, into a paper plate sized target in the high center chest at the longest distance they will shoot inside their home as fast as they can press and reset their trigger. This is the minimum level of skill they will "need" and once that is doable on demand, then more advanced skills will come into the regimen. They are then amazed at how soon they are able to do that with minimal professional training because a good teacher can impart those skills rapidly. I use it as a starting block to demonstrate that they CAN do it and it builds confidence and makes the next steps in training easier for them to accomplish.

Wow! Excellent response. Thank you.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I carry a gun daily for work. I have to qualify yearly. We fire from 25, 14, 7, 4 and 2 yards A total of 60 rounds with a possible score of 120. We only fire 12 rounds from 25 yards. This is due to the fact that most shootings happen under 15 yards.
You should look at shooting from 25 yards as testing the limits of your conceal carry gun. 15 yards as distance for taking cover and returning fire. 7 yards as draw fire, standing going to kneeling with a reload. 4 yards draw and fire (2 to the body 1 to the head, then switch to your weak hand, same drill. Two yards one step to the rear draw and frie two to the body.
All shots should be kept in the vital area.
Shooting for tiny groups is great, but shooting drills will teach you more as in drawing from the holster and rapid engagement of target.
Train as you fight because, you will fight as you train.

 

[Zerodefect]

-25-35 yards, draw and hit normal COM shaped steel plates. Could care less about groups.
-7 yards, paper, draw and shoot multiple IDPA targets WITHOUT the sights.
-10 yards, same thing, no sights
-3 feet, draw and shoot from retention. (not challenging, mostly just to get used to the concussion blast from the pistol when shot that way)

It's good to know your accuracy limits, and group size at 35y. Paper plates at 35y is plenty good. But it's a major slowness training scar, that many have to overcome. So I don't use group size in training. Just hits, and misses.

Obviously some speed should be a goal. Start with 3 seconds and get faster from there. Go faster until you start missing, then slow down and repeat. You only have about 2 seconds to defend yourself well. (CCW 444 rule)

Whatever drills you make up, failure is necessary to improve skill level. Don't be shy about missing a target, and settle for being the "guy at the range who slow fires at 7 yards and never misses".

Once your fairly comfortable:
http://tdiohio.com

 

[WrongHanded]

Creaky_Old_Cop and GunnyUSMC,

With regards to what you have both said about shooting tiny groups: I understand how beyond a certain level of accuracy, in a gunfight, group size become less important. So focusing on small groups at slow speed is not helpful as defensive shooting practice. But when the body is in a 'fight-or-flight' state, how much of a reduction in accuracy can be expected? What I'm getting at is, will drilling for "practical" accuracy at a faster and faster pace still result in positive performance? Or should increasing accuracy in balance with increasing speed be considered to offset the adrenaline rush?

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

Creaky_Old_Cop and GunnyUSMC,

With regards to what you have both said about shooting tiny groups: I understand how beyond a certain level of accuracy, in a gunfight, group size become less important. So focusing on small groups at slow speed is not helpful as defensive shooting practice. But when the body is in a 'fight-or-flight' state, how much of a reduction in accuracy can be expected? What I'm getting at is, will drilling for "practical" accuracy at a faster and faster pace still result in positive performance? Or should increasing accuracy in balance with increasing speed be considered to offset the adrenaline rush?

You are building skill. It's not an A=B proposition. Diminished accuracy, is diminished utilization of skill, or a lack of skill. In the pressure of a fight, you will usually perform to a baseline between your low average and your high average. In essence, you won't (probably) perform at your highest level of skill, but you will certainly perform better than your worst. As you gain experience, both your baseline and your performance will go up as you build muscle memory and autonomic responses to stimuli.

It's an old cliche that you will fight like you train. That's a trusism used by professionals, but more often it's an axiom tossed around by a lot of people who have never actually trained or been in a fight because it's become popular on the interwebz to say it.

The truth is you will fight to the average level of skill that you have built.

 

[pbearperry]

I believe that as long as you can hit a standard size paper plate, you are good to go. When you start missing it, you are past your comfort zone.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Creaky_Old_Cop and GunnyUSMC,

With regards to what you have both said about shooting tiny groups: I understand how beyond a certain level of accuracy, in a gunfight, group size become less important. So focusing on small groups at slow speed is not helpful as defensive shooting practice. But when the body is in a 'fight-or-flight' state, how much of a reduction in accuracy can be expected? What I'm getting at is, will drilling for "practical" accuracy at a faster and faster pace still result in positive performance? Or should increasing accuracy in balance with increasing speed be considered to offset the adrenaline rush?

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Creaky_Old_Cop and GunnyUSMC,

With regards to what you have both said about shooting tiny groups: I understand how beyond a certain level of accuracy, in a gunfight, group size become less important. So focusing on small groups at slow speed is not helpful as defensive shooting practice. But when the body is in a 'fight-or-flight' state, how much of a reduction in accuracy can be expected? What I'm getting at is, will drilling for "practical" accuracy at a faster and faster pace still result in positive performance? Or should increasing accuracy in balance with increasing speed be considered to offset the adrenaline rush?

I'm not an expert in shooting by a long shot. I am however well versed in teaching and developing skills. So In addition to what Gunny and Creaky_Old_Cop said, I'd add that when you train, train with purpose. In other words, never just go out and shoot. Work on speed. Work on accuracy. Work on something until you get it down or until you see improvement. Then do it over and over more until it becomes automatic. Work on something your next training session, but then work on the previous one some too. Build your skills and "muscle memory".

Baseball Hall of Famer Cal Ripken said practice DOESN'T make perfect. PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT.

And yes, I use this in all I do.

 

[Armored farmer]

My mouse gun drill:
I'm like to put hits in a liter bottle at 15yds, aimed fire.
Reload
Minute of paper plates rapid fire 7yds.

 

[tactikel]

IMHO for a civilian SD shooting 30 feet is about maximum justifiable range in my state. It's what our max qualification is. I also use 9" paper plates for practice. 3, 5, 7, and rarely 10 yards. 70% shots at 3 and 5 yards. My goal is to draw and put 7 out of 8 on the paper.

 

[revchuck]

There's an interesting article here on "minimum competency" as it applies to an armed citizen, with a bunch of embedded links that are worth clicking on. As @Creaky_Old_Cop and @GunnyUSMC have noted, there's a lot more to it than group size.

On a practical note, IDPA targets use an 8" "down zero" scoring zone that is located at center chest. You can get IDPA practice targets, printed on target paper rather than cardboard, for about $40/hundred delivered from Brownell's. I prefer the paper ones to cardboard because you can use masking tape to cover the holes rather than target pasters.

 

[FL-NC]

The first step is to set realistic, attainable goals. Once these have been met, try to exceed them. An excellent starting point is the "bowling pin" section of a standard FBI Q-target, which represents the "kill zone". Hits in this area are what gets the job done. Hits outside this area are what I call "supporting shots"- they cause damage, but can't be counted upon to put the adversary down. Hits that miss the target are just misses- ammunition wasted, potential liabilities, and TIME wasted- time is just as important as ammunition supply and accuracy in a gunfight- you can't "re-set" and get any more. All of these things are true regardless of circumstances, what-ifs, etc. Obtain some FBI Q targets and work with them in realistic drills, Get coached by an experienced defensive shooter. Speed will come- remember that you can't miss fast enough. Speed is fine, but accuracy is final. You must learn to be slow in a hurry.

 

[CDW4ME]

My standard test is a 6 inch circle stuck on a larger silhouette.
At 6-7 yards, I want both shots of a pair to hit that 6 inch circle consistently in less than - up to 1/3 second split.
This is a good gauge for my ability to shoot the pistol quickly & accurately at "typical" self defense distance.
This "test" is not hard to pass with a Glock 19/23/32/22/35/20

Good luck consistently keeping a 1/3 second pair on 6 inch circle placed 6-7 yards away with a pocket 380 / 38 snub.

P.S. This aint horseshoes or hand grenades, 1/2 inch away from that circle may technically be a good hit but it don't count, its gotta touch.

 

[bassjam]

25 yards is a pretty good distance for a compact gun, and while I occasionally do shoot at 25 yards for funzies, in the real world I think I'd consider that a "flight" over "fight" distance.

I mostly practice with my conceal carry guns at 7 and 10 yards, and a little at 3 and 15 yards.

 

[Fiv3r]

Like a lot of armed citizens, I don't have a facility to train on the move or from a holster. That kind of training simply isnt available.

And while I think it is an incredible asset to have and we'll worth the dollars if you have access to it and can afford it, to some it's simply an impossibility. I don't fault anyone wanting to be armed as long as they understand their limitation of skill.

I look at it like a gym membership: Should we all belong to one, set up a total body exercise routine, and go a couple miles on a treadmill most every day? Of course we should. But some folks can only afford push ups and a Thigh Master

I understand that I am limited. I feel comfortable that I could pick up pretty much any handgun and know how to load it, clear it, and fire it with good accuracy at 7 yards. 25 yard consistent kill zone shots, head shots under pressure, etc...well outside of my skill set and more than likely NEED as an armed citizen.

Here is what I train for:
Posting up in my home, firing down a narrow 15' staircase should a home intruder decide that the TV and Xbox isn't enough of a payday.

Drawing and dumping my gun into a target at "ambush range" as I flee the danger zone.

I'm not trained to a level where I should expect to do anything beyond getting my family to safety (flee), finding as safe as possible cover for them out of the line of fire (hide), drawing my weapon and firing it once their safety has be compromised by breaching the first two actions (fight).

Due to my limitations in available training, I do not train as a sheepdog. I have no notion that I can expect fast, consistent accuracy in an emergency.

Long post short/tl;dr:

7 rounds of .380 in a fast fist-sized grouping at 7 yards through my mouse gun.

Full magazine of rapid controlled fire into a pie plate at 15 yards through a 4+" barrel pistol.

 

[Zerodefect]

Keep looking. Go to a new range as often as you can.

I just found a range were I can practice moving drills, when I get there early, or whenever it gets slow. It's a fairly dangerous range. You have people moving around and not all on the same line. Big boy rules.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I don't believe in minimum standards to carry. I don't believe there is this point level that one point more you are good to go and another a point less where you are not. If the most common circumstance is 3 shots at 3 yards in 3 seconds then just being able to do a credible draw is pretty much enough.

I'm not against training, I take private lessons, I dry fire a few times a week with a laser bullet, I shoot about 5,000 rounds a year. I've said this before but people do what they enjoy. I shoot because I enjoy shooting. If I did not enjoy it I would not do it. Frankly, I don't put shooting as that important a skill compared to being able to swim and first aid skills.

 

[Balrog]

I take the question to be in reference to compact guns. I think it is unrealistic to consistently hit a paper plate at 25 yards with a Ruger LCP or S&W snub nose revolver. To me, both of those weapons are designed to be used at slightly-longer-than-fist range. 25 yards is a fairly long self defense range anyway. You will have some splaining to do if you shoot someone at that distance. Not saying it might not be necessary, just not likely.

I usually carry a weapon with a 4" or longer barrel. When I do find myself only able to carry a compact, I don't have unrealistic expectation of it (and my) capabililty.

 

[BobWright]

The main consideration is not what size groups you can shoot nor how rapidly you can empty out the cylinder or mazagine, but your ability to get your gun into action and hit what you intend to hit, and do so in a reasonably quick time.


Bob Wright

 

[hot chili powder]

This may or may not apply, you can decide........Wyatt Earp said "fast is fine but accuracy is deadly"......I believe that still works today, just sayin'!

 

[Hardtarget]

I was reading post #2 from creaky-old-cop.....and my mind ran all the way back to an episode of "Miami Vice" ! I KNOW...its just a TV show...but...as I recall Crockett was at the range and as he was shooting/running/reloading...going as fast as he could...there were two cops (training buddies) going with him...yelling, screaming and just generally giving him H*!!. funny to even remember. HOWEVER...that is what I need for training. MOVE...SHOOT...RELOAD...pulse rate up!! ENGAGE targets at different ranges, use barricades and odd positions...all the stuff that makes shooting difficult. Besides being good for my shooting it might be a little fun! I've shot so many paper targets it would be good for me to shake things up a little.

Mark

 

[BSA1]

I take the question to be in reference to compact guns. I think it is unrealistic to consistently hit a paper plate at 25 yards with a Ruger LCP or S&W snub nose revolver. To me, both of those weapons are designed to be used at slightly-longer-than-fist range. 25 yards is a fairly long self defense range anyway. You will have some splaining to do if you shoot someone at that distance. Not saying it might not be necessary, just not likely.

I usually carry a weapon with a 4" or longer barrel. When I do find myself only able to carry a compact, I don't have unrealistic expectation of it (and my) capabililty.

A S&W J-Frame 2” barrel revolver is very capable of shooting tight groups at 25 yards. A former Chief of Police I worked for could outshoot most of the Department (25 Officers plus Reserves) at 25 yards with his nickel plated round butt J- Frame revolver.

Reality check, Just because a attacker with a gun is 25 yards away instead of 7 yards does not make him less of a threat.

If you can shoot a full –size pistol accurately than you should be able to do so with a J-Frame. You just have to work at it harder. I quit carrying my J-Frame in February, 2016 and now my primary edc is Beretta 92FS. I consider J-Frames to be niche guns. However like you I find shooting a full-size pistol more comfortable and easier to shoot tight groups.

 

[BSA1]

25 yards seems like a long way when you're balancing a bullseye on the top of a front sight down at the range. But out in the real world, 25 yards is the other side of the street. And considering that only hits count, and that as legally armed citizens we're all accountable for our misses as well as our hits, what's acceptable to you?

Welcome to taking your self-defense attitude to a higher level. Being honest with ourselves is sometimes the hardest thing to do.

I believe there are no second place winners in a gunfight. I also believe that hits in certain vital areas will shut down an attacker quicker than simply shooting a pie plate group. What comfort is it to your wife and loved ones when your attacker dies ½ hour after you do?

I am a tough on myself. My personal goal is to be able to shoot a magazine or cylinder full of ammunition 2” groups at any distance from 7–25 yards. As the distance increases I also slow down and concentrate on accuracy. We practice shooting at a variety of targets at the range. It keeps it from being the same old punching holes in a black bullseye target. A drill that my wife and I enjoy is one I learned from Ernest Langdon.

Ernest Langdon has an exercise shooting 2 rounds in a 2” circle. He recommends starting at 3 yards and as you get better eventually move to 7 yards. Take all the time you need to get your shots within the circle.

I draw a 2 ½” circle on white sheet of paper. The reason my circles are 2 ½” is that is the size of the pickle jar lid I draw my circles around. Since we both shoot high-capacity semi-autos I draw four circles on a sheet of paper. My wife is a novice and just started seriously training for self-defense in May. She has progressed to about 5-6 yards away.

As I am more advanced shooter I shoot at 7 yards and put additional pressure on myself by shooting it rapidly. I am going to start shooting this exercise at 10 yards to make it more challenging for me. (Remember my goal is 2” groups).

This is simple, fun surprising challenging exercise. It does away with excuses while providing instant feedback.